Approved Project Application: Antlers

Bovine

Playwright
Pronouns
he/him

starcat98

Herald
Staff member
Here's to another two years ! (kidding... hopefully)

Really jinxed myself with this one.

Update time! Not a very large update, but an update nonetheless since it's been a while. As some of you have noticed, I did paste back in the original town as I grew continuously unhappy with the changes I was making. If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Work continues on the castle as I've finally got a layout down that I'm super happy with and received some positive feedback on. In terms of progress others can help with, I have a tannery mini available at /warp pigpens for any new builders looking to build their resume (or any interested builder)! I also have a small, simple septry/priory mini available that will own a few orchards and brew cider. Feel free to message me for more info regarding those minis if you're interested. Finally, I should have some more plots open soon enough for people to build.

On to the next bit of business; there are two unfinished minis at the moment. The manor house as started by Guillaaard and the central hamlet as started by Nikas Kunitz. Feel free to reach out on any updates if you two are still interested in continuing these!

That should do it. I continue to plug away at the super basic terra and should hopefully be wrapping that up soon and be able to get some actual foliage and terrain going soon! Though a specter does loom darkly ahead as I have to manage to do my forests in a post-FAWE-schembrush-script world. So any advice or tips and tricks on that front is surely welcome! Thanks all!
 

starcat98

Herald
Staff member
Plots now open at /warp kunitstoft! Please fly up from the warp to read the guide!

2024-01-22_23.09.24.png

Mini update on the minis: the manor has been adopted by awbman06 and Nikas's hamlet has been replotted. The tannery mini mentioned in the previous post no longer exists, but the small septry is still available!
 

Guillaaard

Herald
hi !
on my part I got little time to no time to get on MC anymore, so i'm fine with awb taking it, everything was nearly done anyways, except the kennels and texturing of some part.
(i'd just like awb to not change the ints of the kitchens please, it's one of the best ints I did on the server and i'm very proud of it ! )
 

AerioOndos

Donkey Lord
Staff member
Pronouns
they/them
hi !
on my part I got little time to no time to get on MC anymore, so i'm fine with awb taking it, everything was nearly done anyways, except the kennels and texturing of some part.
(i'd just like awb to not change the ints of the kitchens please, it's one of the best ints I did on the server and i'm very proud of it ! )

Second on this. The ints were of a high standard with sensible layout already, so the wheel doesn't have to be reinvented. In fact, I'd been using the interiors of the whole mini as a good reference to anyone wanting to do noble/wealthy structures and how to use space appropriately. Love your work guill
 

Darth_Tragon

Bard
Pronouns
he/him
Hiya! Darth here. I have been working with Star pretty extensively on the Septry mini, and I am officially sending it in to apply!

The grounds will come later, including (tentatively) a small cidery, beehives, a launderer's hut, and naturally grass trees flowers and the works. there are two possible locations in Antlers (labeled 1 and 2 in a giant circle) and Star plans to also include a stone wall around the whole thing. I will share a few screenshots of it so far, but it is currently at /warp darth if you want to leave melons. I am of course open to feedback from every avenue!

Lots of changes have been made thus far, I had access to Star for most of it so it was a lot easier to say "hey does this look good?" and brainstorm together on aspects or ways to compromise on both our ideas and I think it definitely had a positive outcome :)

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starcat98

Herald
Staff member
Hiya! Darth here. I have been working with Star pretty extensively on the Septry mini, and I am officially sending it in to apply!

The grounds will come later, including (tentatively) a small cidery, beehives, a launderer's hut, and naturally grass trees flowers and the works. there are two possible locations in Antlers (labeled 1 and 2 in a giant circle) and Star plans to also include a stone wall around the whole thing. I will share a few screenshots of it so far, but it is currently at /warp darth if you want to leave melons. I am of course open to feedback from every avenue!

Lots of changes have been made thus far, I had access to Star for most of it so it was a lot easier to say "hey does this look good?" and brainstorm together on aspects or ways to compromise on both our ideas and I think it definitely had a positive outcome :)

View attachment 18707View attachment 18708View attachment 18709View attachment 18710View attachment 18711View attachment 18712
Approved
 

AerioOndos

Donkey Lord
Staff member
Pronouns
they/them
I don't understand the thought process behind a lot of the changes to Antlersmanor
The solution to finishing off a room for cooler kitchen activities like butter churning + small meatstore was...
Before:
2024-02-09_22.25.41.png
After:
2024-02-09_14.08.31.png
.... to turn it into a pot single shelf pot storage + dark meat cellar with a stone vault ceiling. As visible in the before pic, there's nothing heavy the ceiling needs to support on the floors above. In fact, they're probably best for a butlers room or storage.

Cosy, well outfitted kitchen, looks complete. Before:
2024-02-09_22.02.21.png
After:
2024-02-09_14.08.24.png
After


Kitchen part two. Space for all occupants of the house for meals (how many times do we hear of characters eating in kitchens to eat in ASOIAF?) Large painted crossbeams bring light into the dark floored and timbered space. By having it in use, there feels like there's continuity between kitchen part 1 and this room, while also using most of the space, explorers have to engage with the table to which only adds more life to the room.
Before:

2024-02-09_22.48.51.pngAfter:2024-02-09_13.40.02.pngCrossbeams are pushed back, reducing the brightness of the room. Empty table and lack of plastering on the fireplace makes room feel darker. If this is a noble residence, why are there wattle fences above the doorways?
 
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AerioOndos

Donkey Lord
Staff member
Pronouns
they/them
There was an amazing summer kitchen/bakery in the wooden annex to the manor. This also had a lot of storage2024-02-09_22.07.21.png
2024-02-09_22.07.41.png

The storage is similar, though the inclusion of goods which need cool storage and working like meat and cheese are great. The roofbeams are kept the same, following the idea of the more brightly painted beams nearby. I do like the idea of having a buck cut up on the table, though this was done elsewhere away from furnaces in the original Guillard ints. The loss of the little kiln and frying space + smoke bay is a bit saddening. Having a variety of options for cooking helps give the server creative uses of space and fun challenges of how to include different features in different kinds of plots.

2024-02-09_23.03.52.png

The hunter's entrance to the lower floors featured room for boar spears and gutting of animals. Before:

2024-02-09_22.07.08.png

After:2024-02-09_14.08.18.png

The walls are now entirely clad in stone (which would make the room and rooms above harder to heat) with the reference to the House Buckwell's name and sigil removed. Again, makes the house seem partly abandoned and cold. Colour is your friend!



The simple exterior, windows are well placed and feels like old manors throughout Medieval Europe. There's even a back door from the kitchen level to get to the forest behind the manor, to which the walls run parallel. Before:

2024-02-09_22.01.45.pngAfter:

2024-02-09_13.59.49.png
2024-02-09_13.59.45.png

The large extension added doesn't follow the established pattern in this build's exteriors. The more recent additions are built of different materials but augment the structure, rather than taking away. The extension removes two windows from the main hall, making it noticeably darker and dimmer.

2024-02-09_14.08.45.png

Here's another choice I didn't understand. Staff who served nobles often didn't live in the residence together with the family and if there were some, it usually wasn't the whole staff who were in residence. Even in early 20th Century opulence they didn't keep the most important staff in the House 24/7 with them. Think about how Mrs Hughes, Mrs Patmore, Carson and so on stay either in the village or in separate cottages on the estate. The staff who slept on site were scullion mades, footmen and so on. The lowest paid.
Also, Osgrey of Standfast couldn't afford to keep a maester. Antlers Manor isn't that much larger than Standfast. There's certainly a larger budget, but not enough for a separate man-of-learning from the main Lord Buckwell. Healing and tutelage could be done at the main castle (Like how Beth Cassel and Jeyne Poole went to lessons with the Stark children, the manor children could spend time with the main Buckwell children).
Antlersmanor is no Downton Abbey. They certainly couldn't afford to keep a bed for more than 1-2 maids or serving men. Too much food and laundry to keep more.
There were brilliant rooms beside the staircase which could house the rooms of staff. They're the perfect size to be warm in winter and located behind the kitchen part 1 fireplace so v cozy. Make these into cute little rooms instead of adding a whole cold annex.
 

Finn01

Envoy
There was an amazing summer kitchen/bakery in the wooden annex to the manor. This also had a lot of storageView attachment 18743
View attachment 18741

The storage is similar, though the inclusion of goods which need cool storage and working like meat and cheese are great. The roofbeams are kept the same, following the idea of the more brightly painted beams nearby. I do like the idea of having a buck cut up on the table, though this was done elsewhere away from furnaces in the original Guillard ints. The loss of the little kiln and frying space + smoke bay is a bit saddening. Having a variety of options for cooking helps give the server creative uses of space and fun challenges of how to include different features in different kinds of plots.

View attachment 18742

The hunter's entrance to the lower floors featured room for boar spears and gutting of animals. Before:

View attachment 18744

After:View attachment 18745

The walls are now entirely clad in stone (which would make the room and rooms above harder to heat) with the reference to the House Buckwell's name and sigil removed. Again, makes the house seem partly abandoned and cold. Colour is your friend!



The simple exterior, windows are well placed and feels like old manors throughout Medieval Europe. There's even a back door from the kitchen level to get to the forest behind the manor, to which the walls run parallel. Before:

View attachment 18746After:

View attachment 18747
View attachment 18748

The large extension added doesn't follow the established pattern in this build's exteriors. The more recent additions are built of different materials but augment the structure, rather than taking away. The extension removes two windows from the main hall, making it noticeably darker and dimmer.

View attachment 18749

Here's another choice I didn't understand. Staff who served nobles often didn't live in the residence together with the family and if there were some, it usually wasn't the whole staff who were in residence. Even in early 20th Century opulence they didn't keep the most important staff in the House 24/7 with them. Think about how Mrs Hughes, Mrs Patmore, Carson and so on stay either in the village or in separate cottages on the estate. The staff who slept on site were scullion mades, footmen and so on. The lowest paid.
Also, Osgrey of Standfast couldn't afford to keep a maester. Antlers Manor isn't that much larger than Standfast. There's certainly a larger budget, but not enough for a separate man-of-learning from the main Lord Buckwell. Healing and tutelage could be done at the main castle (Like how Beth Cassel and Jeyne Poole went to lessons with the Stark children, the manor children could spend time with the main Buckwell children).
Antlersmanor is no Downton Abbey. They certainly couldn't afford to keep a bed for more than 1-2 maids or serving men. Too much food and laundry to keep more.
There were brilliant rooms beside the staircase which could house the rooms of staff. They're the perfect size to be warm in winter and located behind the kitchen part 1 fireplace so v cozy. Make these into cute little rooms instead of adding a whole cold annex.
It's strange because I mentioned to Awb in game that Guil didn't want the kitchen ints changed. Still went ahead and just changed everything anyway, and that annex wasn't there when I looked at it.
 

Homiesucc

Envoy
Pronouns
she/her
There was an amazing summer kitchen/bakery in the wooden annex to the manor. This also had a lot of storageView attachment 18743
View attachment 18741

The storage is similar, though the inclusion of goods which need cool storage and working like meat and cheese are great. The roofbeams are kept the same, following the idea of the more brightly painted beams nearby. I do like the idea of having a buck cut up on the table, though this was done elsewhere away from furnaces in the original Guillard ints. The loss of the little kiln and frying space + smoke bay is a bit saddening. Having a variety of options for cooking helps give the server creative uses of space and fun challenges of how to include different features in different kinds of plots.

View attachment 18742

The hunter's entrance to the lower floors featured room for boar spears and gutting of animals. Before:

View attachment 18744

After:View attachment 18745

The walls are now entirely clad in stone (which would make the room and rooms above harder to heat) with the reference to the House Buckwell's name and sigil removed. Again, makes the house seem partly abandoned and cold. Colour is your friend!



The simple exterior, windows are well placed and feels like old manors throughout Medieval Europe. There's even a back door from the kitchen level to get to the forest behind the manor, to which the walls run parallel. Before:

View attachment 18746After:

View attachment 18747
View attachment 18748

The large extension added doesn't follow the established pattern in this build's exteriors. The more recent additions are built of different materials but augment the structure, rather than taking away. The extension removes two windows from the main hall, making it noticeably darker and dimmer.

View attachment 18749

Here's another choice I didn't understand. Staff who served nobles often didn't live in the residence together with the family and if there were some, it usually wasn't the whole staff who were in residence. Even in early 20th Century opulence they didn't keep the most important staff in the House 24/7 with them. Think about how Mrs Hughes, Mrs Patmore, Carson and so on stay either in the village or in separate cottages on the estate. The staff who slept on site were scullion mades, footmen and so on. The lowest paid.
Also, Osgrey of Standfast couldn't afford to keep a maester. Antlers Manor isn't that much larger than Standfast. There's certainly a larger budget, but not enough for a separate man-of-learning from the main Lord Buckwell. Healing and tutelage could be done at the main castle (Like how Beth Cassel and Jeyne Poole went to lessons with the Stark children, the manor children could spend time with the main Buckwell children).
Antlersmanor is no Downton Abbey. They certainly couldn't afford to keep a bed for more than 1-2 maids or serving men. Too much food and laundry to keep more.
There were brilliant rooms beside the staircase which could house the rooms of staff. They're the perfect size to be warm in winter and located behind the kitchen part 1 fireplace so v cozy. Make these into cute little rooms instead of adding a whole cold annex.
It had so much more depth before, do you have enough pictures that we can just change it back?
 

AwbMan

Street Preacher
First of all, I think this attack is unnecessary and a bit insensitive. To answer what Finn said, I did the kitchens and redid the rooms before Guillard made the post. Secondly, There were many flaws in Guillard's designs that didn't make sense. They would NOT have the stinky carcass in the main building, let alone next to the dining room where everyone could smell it. Another flaw that made no sense was the low-hanging rafters, which i raised up to give the room more height. The walls were the same wood as the furniture, which blended together, and not doing that is a rule I follow. Aeks, the room that you pointed out was labeled as cold storage. The dining room is unused at the moment, but if it's that big of a deal to Star I shall change it back. the servants quarters make sense, they are close to the kitchens and are big enough to hold all the servants who would come along. This manor is used very frequently, and I wanted that to be reflected. Overall the choices I'm making and still making are mine to make, so by making a post that fills up half the forum page is ridiculous and taking it too far.
 

AerioOndos

Donkey Lord
Staff member
Pronouns
they/them
EDITED

I admit I was over dramatic with the first few lines of that message but the critique I think is justified. There's stuff you have done well/interestingly but only so much I could write before bed last night.

I was aware you'd changed the kitchen before any requests were made to keep it. I was hoping that Kitchen part 1 might have already been posted in during the week and a half since Guillard's request since that room isn't finished in your version. Star made a copy of the interiors before changes were made so we still have them (though some things have been changed by the cycler updates).

Firstly, a fresh carcass doesn't smell I'd butchered properly. I work with meat all day and any smell bad enough you can notice from the next room means the meat is unsafe. Particularly with venison. The purpose of stringing up a carcass outside is to remove smelly guts before it's brought inside (fewer insects inside, hence why its not all done outside). Sure you can have both, but it's fun to have the room feel less like an armoury only and instead have the Buckwell-relevant feature too.

The low hanging rafters, as stated before, help make the room brighter and lower ceilings make it easier to keep the kitchen and hall above warmer through long Westeros winters. If it's too hot, dining can be shifted outdoors into the beautiful grounds.
These interiors mimic Dirnitz/knights hall/warming rooms in Europe. I've hyperlinked Dirnitz to a wiki article on it. You can find more examples ofc online.
Normally, I'd say raising the ceiling is a good idea, but the OG intention lines up more with this type of room mentioned above and the set up of Guillard's version works really well holistically.
Fair point with the furniture and I agree with you there. We don't want the furniture to disappear. Though personally I'd use oak as much as possible to break up the dark tones of the jungle and winterfell granite. If you can't make light, fake it!

My problem with the coolroom is the unnecessary vault. There's no great weight above to rationalise building such an expensive, time consuming structure. Also keep the cheese in there and mb bring back some butter churning. Variation is what makes the ints fun and lively. You could try out a wooden rafters design to hold the carcasses and sausages?
Also mb put the cheese in there and bring back the back exit towards the forest? Mushrooms and foraged herbs from the forest would be perfect to supplement the kitchen supplies.

If the manor is used frequently, why is the dining room in such disarray? It seems hastily abandoned. The table cloth is bunched up and askew and the carpet similarly bunched up and skewed strangely. Wouldn't these be arranged neatly? Ready to be used as soon as people arrive. Neat stacks of lined and maybe a basket holding more could be a pretty cool way to develop a corner. OR there could be floor scrubbign

Why would there need to be a separate Annex to hold all the servants? There places are the workstations (laundering, hunting, cooking and so on) and there's a large dining hall to congregate in if needed. And there's a village only a few minutes walk from the manor. Servants boarding is an additional expense in heating, food and besides, they often slept in already heated rooms on mats and bedrolls if they were staying over. Think about the scene in The Favourite where the staff are all sleeping in the kitchen of Hampton Court palace (it's about 30 mins in iirc). One of the biggest palaces in the UK and it didn't have dedicated rooms for the maids and kitchen hands.
You're thinking about looking after peasants and other poor souls and thats really good! Unfortunately, peasants are chopped liver in Westeros.
Patsy-Coconuts.jpg


More to come
 
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starcat98

Herald
Staff member
To preface this, there is an exact copy of Guil's manor on my plot, unchanged from its original form. Should anyone feel so inclined to reference it, you can visit it there.

To establish some context behind certain design choices and to address some bits of feedback provided by Aeks, I'd also like to explain the purpose and "head-canon" behind the manor itself. It is not owned by an independent noble or otherwise. It is meant to be another estate directly owned by the Lord of Antlers and House Buckwell, much like how IRL nobles would own several estates, castles, etc. The location of the manor, adjacent to what I've termed the "Lord's Wood" (itself meant to be a deer park), allows it to be used by the lord and his entourage as comfortable lodging during extended hunting trips. Although it can and does have many other uses, from being a summer retreat (cooler due to its proximity to water and shade from trees) to just being another lavish estate for the lord to flaunt his wealth and prestige. The manor itself, while seemingly right down the road from the castle and a village, is meant to be miles away. I just can't accurately display that because of our scale. It is not intended to be inhabited 100% of the time by anyone more than the butler and a group of caretakers/servants who maintain it.

Both my opinion and answer on this entire situation is that Awb's ints are good, and so are Guil's. I think attempting to compare the two together, or one against the other, is inane and based too heavily on subjectivity. When Awb asked me about the manor, Guil had been inactive for quite some time, so I had no problem handing it off to another builder who was eager to work on it. I made a post on the project thread as well as reached out to Guil through discord and waited a week for any objections, of which there were none. I made it clear to Awb that everything should remain the same and that the build as is was just to be completed rather than changed or updated. Awb did approach me and ask to add on what you all have dubbed the "annex", which I approved as I was fine with allowing Awb to demonstrate what he had in mind. Beyond that, I do not recall consenting to any more changes to the interiors beyond what was already incomplete. However, myself nor anyone else should blame Awb for this, as I hold myself fully accountable for not stepping in and preventing changes from happening. It was my intention to allow Awb some creative freedom while working on this build, as I am of the opinion that allowing builders as much of that as possible results in our best builds, hence why I allowed the interior changes to slide. I was also blissfully unaware of the kerfuffle that that decision would end up causing.

To be frank, as I've mentioned, I like both versions of the manor and I think both builders did a fantastic job. I'm still working out a compromise in all of this without explicitly nuking either's work. I would kindly ask that we keep discussions regarding the manor civil and constructive, as heated discussions have happened multiple times. If anyone has any feedback to provide, please leave melons, or private message myself, Awb, or either of my approving mods and it will be addressed at our discretion.

Thank you all, and if you have any questions feel free to reach out.

EDIT: Apologies, as I forgot to mention it in the body of the reply, but thank you for the feedback Aeks, it is very constructive and mirrors the general vibe I'd like for the build.
 
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Guillaaard

Herald
Hi everyone,

At first I didn't wanted to say anything about all this, because i've wanted to be involved in the server in a more distant and positive way, but how it's turning out is making me feel extremely incomfortable.
Awb, the solutions I used, wether architecturally, decoratively, were all reflecting 5 years of study of the Medieval Art History, 2 years of personal involvement in the server, to always try to create the best I could, the most realistic, sensitive, accurate yet lively, medieval architecture on our server. you are talking about insensivity but your way of handling this all shows little to no compassion for another person work who isn't even an older builder leaving the server ...
here is my point of view : it was made for the server, for a bigger project than a personal art moment. yet it's still my hours of times, my mind put to creativity, my research on old english manors that went into this. yet i'm going to say more about this in a later paragraph.
And that's where I want to express something.
Even if I left it, apparently awb started working on it before I said anything, before any response : this fill extremely insensitive, you don't rework, redo, disembody to redo someone else creation without his consent, even if we are a colective server working on a one colective production. Things can be handled with respect toward what we all create. we have indeed a lot of rules to protect what old builders, who don't consider coming back have done. they are always in the conversation. But here,while I thought awb wanted to finish it for the greater goal of helping finish antlers, but things that didn't need redoing, got redone. things that were server standarts got redone. even my sole expressed wish : keeping a single int I was proud of, was just not even taken into account.

I don't know what are the server policies on "builder's right" (as to refer to the real artists right), in which one creator let his creation for the public yet it's morally still is his and he has right to have a say in it. But I think that all the other creative people on here can atest how deeply unsetling this can be for someone.
it reflect a past experience I had recently ( well on months timescale) on the server where what I did, what I was creating was not taken as a cooperation and respected as a creation of one for the multitude, as a brick amongst the bricks ; but where my production, my build, was just taken, reformed, reused, without my consent and to be used, and that it seemed normal for a lot of people.

as this make me feel like shit to be honest, as this make me feel used, erased, because even the smallest request I had ( don't redo the kitchen) was not taken into account, i'm going to end that too long writing.
to end this gut feeling writing I did here, and i'm sorry for that : i'd like my original building to not be used anymore. and by that I mean, you can always take inspiration from it etc. it seems impossible to not be the case. but I don't want my build, reworked over the top without my consent to be used.
I'm very sorry Star, building in Antlers was an absolute pleasure, it was a great creative moment, but i'm sure awb is capable of doing his own manor if he want so. or that a lot of builders on the server will be interested in an higher standing lord's hunting manor.
everything artsy, everything creative, should always be consider with respect and positiveness in mind, and here I feel like it wasn't. so i'd like the form that awb created with my original build to not be used, as this is not what I consented to in the first place.

sorry for the long reading and messy writing,
with regards, and thank you Star and Aeks,
Guillard
 
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