Oldtown: Feedback and Suggestions

My only problem with doing color-based patterns is that it would not translate well to a very irregular shape like a heptagon, which the starry sept will most likely be. The sides are uneven so any contrasty patterns would look very busy/crunchy as well as being inconsistent on all sides which would not be ideal.
I adjunted San Bartolomeo because the use of black stone as a façade decoration. The patterns it shows, although beautiful, most likely won't end up in the final sept, as it has been clarified in the discussion above (they aren't exactly canon, the sept is black, that's it). Maybe the front façade of the sept, but in any case they are quite hard to make in game, as 1 block- thick stripes would be quite chunky.
 
I adjunted San Bartolomeo because the use of black stone as a façade decoration. The patterns it shows, although beautiful, most likely won't end up in the final sept, as it has been clarified in the discussion above (they aren't exactly canon, the sept is black, that's it). Maybe the front façade of the sept, but in any case they are quite hard to make in game, as 1 block- thick stripes would be quite chunky.
I think doing it on the front facade as a later addition would be good since Byzantine buildings like San Vitale Ravenna and Palatine Chapel don’t have impressive facades
 
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As a guest I would say one of the biggest achievements of this server are gradients. The way the Red Keep, Winterfell or even a small house look so good and realistic while using just one or two materials is amazing to me. Personally my push on the marble patterned sept is divided between the lack of real life examples of all black structures from where to draft inspo, the problems stated by Margaery with very dark spaces in Minecraft and the fact that it looks very good and it fits the Byzantine inspo.

To clarify, I have no issue with using gradients, I'm just explaining why they are used in favour of monochromatic palettes.

There are a number of examples of structures in Westeros for which it is hard to find real life inspiration. The Dragonpit is a notable comparator as it is also black. Again, my only insistence is that the Starry Sept is built using mostly black materials. As with your example of Florence Cathedral, it is mostly white, which is why it is often referred to as such.
 
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black and white stripes wouldn’t look good tbh. i have a completely black version of the sept in the imgur album i posted a few days ago. my problem, like marge’s, is that it was so hard to see and its very hard to make out details such as arches when they’re black. that’s why i tried to incorporate the bedrock into the black gradient as possible so it’s less intense on the eyes
 
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Imo making the Sept all black would not be terrible. I have made a test of the all-black palette on my KL father sept as well as using my 2nd Starry Sept. Adding a gradient with bedrock, basalt brick and cobble as well as using nether brick (which should be retextured imo) to define structural features like arches works to add variety and contrast in the build while keeping true to canon. Also details/ furnishings like the statues, stained glass windows, sept crystals, a winterfell granite floor and candle altars will add some color and variety.

 
Azulejo's attempt at scale modeling
Soooo I saw there are many small reproductions of the Starry Sept around the test world, each representing different plans for the buiding. I still don't have the launcher, but I wanted to give it a try too, so I built a model in Vanilla MC.

Optimized-InShot_20210115_192903324 (1).jpg
Map Legend
  • Red: Starry Sept
  • Orange: Other sept rooms and sept cloister
  • Deep Blue: High Septon's palace
  • Purple and Green: septry/motherhouse (it's not specified which one is each)
  • Yellow solid circle: Adjacent Sept
  • Yellow hollow circles: septry/motherhouse's septs
  • Light Blue: old Starry Sept
In this model I tried to stay within the current Sept borders in Oldtown's WIP, although some buildings spilled at the western side. My main focus was to achive a complex that feels cohesive but "unorganized" at the same time, to showcase both the age and the organic growth that it has been throught. Now I will go a bit into detail of each building.

RED: THE STARRY SEPT
I didn't detailed it very much as to keep it open for other proposals. I although shaped it a bit like the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem, as I like its dome (it is older-looking compared to other septs in Westeroscraft, that tend to be gothic).

Optimized-InShot_20210115_195845645.jpg
The general shape of the Starry Sept is based on the Holy Selpuchre dome.


ORANGE: OTHER ROOMS
I didn't specified the use of these spaces, as to keep it open to interpretation and future needs. The west body acts at a secondary façade to the sept, facing the river and the port. Located atop a terrace and with a square on front, it would allow outsiders to peak at the black walls of the core of the complex, as well as give a beautiful profile from the Hightower and the other side of the city. The north body is distributed around a courtyard, and may house oficines, rooms and the Spet's archives. It doesn't have a main entrance, as this space is more private.

Optimized-InShot_20210115_202943976.jpg
The West wing (top) likely has a basilica floorplan, like this church in Milan. The north cloister (bottom) follows a tradition of exempt courtyards found in many cathedrals around Europe, like the the one in the photo (Oviedo).


DEEP BLUE: HIGH SEPTON'S PALACE
When Oldtown and the Starry Sept were the center of the Faith, the High Septon had his residence here. It extends parallel to the southern stairs, creating an imposing and magnificent view. Its big size is justified by the power and the time the High Septon of Oldtown controled religion in all Westeros. His influence was likely as high as the Pope or some archbishops. Right now it is the residence of the Septon of the city, as well as many administration officials. An opulent building, it is divided between the main wing, facing the square, and a courtyard. It's very likely that more humble and bigot High Septons refused to live on this buiding, choosing other stays in the complex (like the neighboring septry).

Optimized-InShot_20210115_205818429.jpg
The High Septon's palace houses now more uses than when it was the residence of the maximun authority of the Faith, as such a big space is not needed. Administration and other bureaucratic offices are found here. Still, its grandiose façade rivals only with the one of the Starry Sept. The building conforms to the sloped terrain in a similar manner that the one at the top right, in the Plaza del Obradoiro in Santiago de Compostela.


PURPLE/GREEN: SEPTRY AND MOTHERHOUSE
This buidings do not form part of the Starry Sept, but they are very strongly linked to the history of the building. Most likely they were established when the Sept was smaller, in order to be as close to the center of the Faith as possible. With time the Sept complex grew, colliding with these complexes. It is not specified which one is male and female. They both have their own septs and are built around courtyards.

Optimized-InShot_20210115_211407693.jpg
These monastic complexes grew at the same time as the Starry Sept, eventually joining to the building. A similar evolution can be seen on Oviedo's Cathedral and Monasterio de San Pelayo, a female monastery that was established near the cathedral due to its holiness, and ended up been absorbed by the temple.


YELLOW SOLID CIRCLE: ADJACENT SEPT
This sept, that is housed on the corner of the northern courtyard, most likely was built as an independent buiding. In similar fashion to the septry and the motherhouse, ended up been eaten by the Starry Sept. It is very ornate, as it's often chosen by the nobility and other important residents of Oldtown to celebrate important events. I see it as a smaller and more "commoner" Starry sept, for joyfull festivities. Alternatively, it could have been built by some Targaryen King that wanted to thank the Faith for something, or to gain the people's favor.

Optimized-InShot_20210115_213209968.jpg
I imagine this building sandwiched between the surrounding buidings and streets, like the one in GoT (not as big thought).


YELLOW HOLLOW CIRCLES: SEPTRY/MOTHERHOUSE'S SEPTS
Each monastic complex has its own sept. They are public, serving both the brothers/septas and the people of the city. This is directly inspired on the mendicant orders.

Optimized-InShot_20210115_234526913.jpg
In this three images the highlighted building serves as a public and private temple (top image Monasterio de San Pelayo, Oviedo).


LIGTH BLUE: ORIGINAL STARRY SEPT
Buildings with a long history tend to leave behind some remains of the old structures. Undoubtedly any version of the Starry Sept that ends up bein built won't depict the original Starry Sept. Thousands of years have past since then. But it's very likely that some of the previous versions of the construction are still standing, somewhere inside the walls of the complex. Inspired by some medieval cathedrals, I decided to put a smaller, older version of the sept embbeded on the southern wall of the West wing.

Optimized-InShot_20210116_002122472.jpg
The old temple was preserved, and the new built atop. Old Cathedral, Oviedo (left), Old Cathedral, Salamanca (right).

Optimized-InShot_20210116_005259535.jpg
Left: Unaltered rooftop view. Right: From top to bottom, West, North, South and East façades of the sept.
 
Azulejo's attempt at scale modeling
Soooo I saw there are many small reproductions of the Starry Sept around the test world, each representing different plans for the buiding. I still don't have the launcher, but I wanted to give it a try too, so I built a model in Vanilla MC.

View attachment 6930
Map Legend
  • Red: Starry Sept
  • Orange: Other sept rooms and sept cloister
  • Deep Blue: High Septon's palace
  • Purple and Green: septry/motherhouse (it's not specified which one is each)
  • Yellow solid circle: Adjacent Sept
  • Yellow hollow circles: septry/motherhouse's septs
  • Light Blue: old Starry Sept
In this model I tried to stay within the current Sept borders in Oldtown's WIP, although some buildings spilled at the western side. My main focus was to achive a complex that feels cohesive but "unorganized" at the same time, to showcase both the age and the organic growth that it has been throught. Now I will go a bit into detail of each building.

RED: THE STARRY SEPT
I didn't detailed it very much as to keep it open for other proposals. I although shaped it a bit like the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem, as I like its dome (it is older-looking compared to other septs in Westeroscraft, that tend to be gothic).

View attachment 6935
The general shape of the Starry Sept is based on the Holy Selpuchre dome.


ORANGE: OTHER ROOMS
I didn't specified the use of these spaces, as to keep it open to interpretation and future needs. The west body acts at a secondary façade to the sept, facing the river and the port. Located atop a terrace and with a square on front, it would allow outsiders to peak at the black walls of the core of the complex, as well as give a beautiful profile from the Hightower and the other side of the city. The north body is distributed around a courtyard, and may house oficines, rooms and the Spet's archives. It doesn't have a main entrance, as this space is more private.

View attachment 6931
The West wing (top) likely has a basilica floorplan, like this church in Milan. The north cloister (bottom) follows a tradition of exempt courtyards found in many cathedrals around Europe, like the the one in the photo (Oviedo).


DEEP BLUE: HIGH SEPTON'S PALACE
When Oldtown and the Starry Sept were the center of the Faith, the High Septon had his residence here. It extends parallel to the southern stairs, creating an imposing and magnificent view. Its big size is justified by the power and the time the High Septon of Oldtown controled religion in all Westeros. His influence was likely as high as the Pope or some archbishops. Right now it is the residence of the Septon of the city, as well as many administration officials. An opulent building, it is divided between the main wing, facing the square, and a courtyard. It's very likely that more humble and bigot High Septons refused to live on this buiding, choosing other stays in the complex (like the neighboring septry).

View attachment 6936
The High Septon's palace houses now more uses than when it was the residence of the maximun authority of the Faith, as such a big space is not needed. Administration and other bureaucratic offices are found here. Still, its grandiose façade rivals only with the one of the Starry Sept. The building conforms to the sloped terrain in a similar manner that the one at the top right, in the Plaza del Obradoiro in Santiago de Compostela.


PURPLE/GREEN: SEPTRY AND MOTHERHOUSE
This buidings do not form part of the Starry Sept, but they are very strongly linked to the history of the building. Most likely they were established when the Sept was smaller, in order to be as close to the center of the Faith as possible. With time the Sept complex grew, colliding with these complexes. It is not specified which one is male and female. They both have their own septs and are built around courtyards.

View attachment 6937
These monastic complexes grew at the same time as the Starry Sept, eventually joining to the building. A similar evolution can be seen on Oviedo's Cathedral and Monasterio de San Pelayo, a female monastery that was established near the cathedral due to its holiness, and ended up been absorbed by the temple.


YELLOW SOLID CIRCLE: ADJACENT SEPT
This sept, that is housed on the corner of the northern courtyard, most likely was built as an independent buiding. In similar fashion to the septry and the motherhouse, ended up been eaten by the Starry Sept. It is very ornate, as it's often chosen by the nobility and other important residents of Oldtown to celebrate important events. I see it as a smaller and more "commoner" Starry sept, for joyfull festivities. Alternatively, it could have been built by some Targaryen King that wanted to thank the Faith for something, or to gain the people's favor.

View attachment 6938
I imagine this building sandwiched between the surrounding buidings and streets, like the one in GoT (not as big thought).


YELLOW HOLLOW CIRCLES: SEPTRY/MOTHERHOUSE'S SEPTS
Each monastic complex has its own sept. They are public, serving both the brothers/septas and the people of the city. This is directly inspired on the mendicant orders.

View attachment 6940
In this three images the highlighted building serves as a public and private temple (top image Monasterio de San Pelayo, Oviedo).


LIGTH BLUE: ORIGINAL STARRY SEPT
Buildings with a long history tend to leave behind some remains of the old structures. Undoubtedly any version of the Starry Sept that ends up bein built won't depict the original Starry Sept. Thousands of years have past since then. But it's very likely that some of the previous versions of the construction are still standing, somewhere inside the walls of the complex. Inspired by some medieval cathedrals, I decided to put a smaller, older version of the sept embbeded on the southern wall of the West wing.

View attachment 6941
The old temple was preserved, and the new built atop. Old Cathedral, Oviedo (left), Old Cathedral, Salamanca (right).

View attachment 6945
Left: Unaltered rooftop view. Right: From top to bottom, West, North, South and East façades of the sept.
Absolutely love the planning, explanations and examples shown in this. Imo one of my fave layouts for the starry sept complex so far, amazing job azulejo!!
 
Don't know if these necessarily fit the style of the rest of Oldtown (but at the same time maybe it would be good for it to have a unique style) but here are some style tests for the Citadel based off Cambridge University (which I think should be at least conceptually an inspiration for the Citadel, along with Oxford).
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I was saddened by the many instances of rude comments I saw from Jake in regards to the Sept test I've been working on for no good reason. He has repeatedly called it the "Starry Mosque". The Haia Sofia was a church before so I don't see the point aside being mean spirited. My intention was to have an example of a sept with an alternative and more engaging floor plan. While visiting it with Jake, Stoop said it disgusts him because it's not seven sided. Yesterday, Contra went in near me and put fireworks when I was working on it without saying a word and left without any context. I get that they want to have their model used and they can campaign for it, but it is not in the spirit of our server to deliberately and continously try to bring down another builder's tests to the server in general and to the person who decides which tests get approved. At this point, Jake and Contra should stop with those kind of comments and odd actions. I've lost a lot of interest in light of what's happened and it sucks because it took me a lot of time to get it to where it is.
 
I was saddened by the many instances of rude comments I saw from Jake in regards to the Sept test I've been working on for no good reason. He has repeatedly called it the "Starry Mosque". The Haia Sofia was a church before so I don't see the point aside being mean spirited. My intention was to have an example of a sept with an alternative and more engaging floor plan. While visiting it with Jake, Stoop said it disgusts him because it's not seven sided. Yesterday, Contra went in near me and put fireworks when I was working on it without saying a word and left without any context. I get that they want to have their model used and they can campaign for it, but it is not in the spirit of our server to deliberately and continously try to bring down another builder's tests to the server in general and to the person who decides which tests get approved. At this point, Jake and Contra should stop with those kind of comments and odd actions. I've lost a lot of interest in light of what's happened and it sucks because it took me a lot of time to get it to where it is.
Hey Nuggets, I was under the impression the test was made by Jake, since it was shown to me in a series of about three other tests of the Starry Sept from other builders and Jake requested me to take a look at it. Had I known the actual builder of the test was not part of the discourse at that moment I would have not made the remark the way I did.

I'd like to give a bit more context around the remark though, as I quickly followed it up ingame with; "but I have to say its not bad architecturally", a feeling the other builders part of the discussion corroborated. I don't think anyone thinks it is a bad test, but in my opinion it's not qualified as a sept due to it's floorplan. I made the remark about it's lack of seven sides because we have made great effort to communicate the necessity of such a shape to testers for the Starry Sept.
 

Iwan

Lean forward and grab!
Admin
As with all major server builds, the leader(s) will be appointed by a mod consensus. That is because while we have a great many people perfectly capable of building us a decent Starry Sept, leading a server build comes with an entirely different set of skills required of the leader(s) - at least speaking from my personal experience with leading and participating in server builds since 2012.

Our most prestigious projects usually have a huge number of stakeholders - everyone has their own vision for a famous place like Winterfell or the Red Keep, or the Starry Sept, Citadel and the Hightower in Oldtown. Our aim is to not only build the best version of these projects that we are capable of, but also one that is as inclusive as possible and that ideally manages to integrate as many ideas as possible. This balance is delicate, and the more people show interest in a project, the more difficult it becomes to keep it. This is why we usually very carefully decide on who is to lead such a project - and the criteria that we look for in that person(s) focus more on leadership, communication, authority, fairness and more rather than actual building skills.

We all know there is probably a great number of builders we could simply task to build the thing for us and it would turn out nicely. But as I said, we don't just want to copy it in, and we want as many people as possible to be able to recognize themselves and their creativity in the finished build as possible.

This is why there will not be the possibility to apply for the general leadership of a project like the Starry Sept, the Hightower or the Citadel in Oldtown, but there will be opportunities within those projects:
Like we did in Winterfell or the Red Keep, the projects will be divided into smaller parts and people will be able to lead small teams focusing on those, within the constraints set by the overall leadership. For instance, in Winterfell people were able to lead e.g. the library tower or the great hall, and others were able to contribute to those, while the general layouts, styles and palettes were defined by Thamus. We will do something similar with the three big server projects in Oldtown.
 
As with all major server builds, the leader(s) will be appointed by a mod consensus. That is because while we have a great many people perfectly capable of building us a decent Starry Sept, leading a server build comes with an entirely different set of skills required of the leader(s) - at least speaking from my personal experience with leading and participating in server builds since 2012.

Our most prestigious projects usually have a huge number of stakeholders - everyone has their own vision for a famous place like Winterfell or the Red Keep, or the Starry Sept, Citadel and the Hightower in Oldtown. Our aim is to not only build the best version of these projects that we are capable of, but also one that is as inclusive as possible and that ideally manages to integrate as many ideas as possible. This balance is delicate, and the more people show interest in a project, the more difficult it becomes to keep it. This is why we usually very carefully decide on who is to lead such a project - and the criteria that we look for in that person(s) focus more on leadership, communication, authority, fairness and more rather than actual building skills.

We all know there is probably a great number of builders we could simply task to build the thing for us and it would turn out nicely. But as I said, we don't just want to copy it in, and we want as many people as possible to be able to recognize themselves and their creativity in the finished build as possible.

This is why there will not be the possibility to apply for the general leadership of a project like the Starry Sept, the Hightower or the Citadel in Oldtown, but there will be opportunities within those projects:
Like we did in Winterfell or the Red Keep, the projects will be divided into smaller parts and people will be able to lead small teams focusing on those, within the constraints set by the overall leadership. For instance, in Winterfell people were able to lead e.g. the library tower or the great hall, and others were able to contribute to those, while the general layouts, styles and palettes were defined by Thamus. We will do something similar with the three big server projects in Oldtown.
Would people be able to apply for the main monument in the same way Fin applied for the Hightower proper but Ark and WRMD are the project leads?