Oldtown: Feedback and Suggestions

[ContraBlonde]

Quick round up of Starry Sept canon, let me know if I've missed anything:

Canon
Appearance:
- It has "black marble walls and arched windows", visible from the exterior, as seen from a bridge near the Quill and Tankard. (Prologue, FfC)
- Also visible from this vantage point are the manses of the pious "clustered like children gathered round the feet of an old dowager". (Prologue, FfC)
- It has "dark marble halls" (WoIaF, The Reach: Oldtown).
- It is counted among the three "great monuments" of Oldtown, along with the Citadel and Hightower. (WoIaF, The Reach: Oldtown).
- The splendour of the castle sept at Highgarden is "rivaled only by that of the Great Sept of Baelor in King's Landing and the Starry Sept of Oldtown." (WoIaF, The Reach: Highgarden).

Significance:
- The Starry Sept has been the seat of the High Septon for a thousand years before Aegon's Conquest. (Prologue, FfC)
- The official start of Aegon's rule is from when he was crowned and anointed in the Starry Sept. (WoIaF, The Reach: Oldtown).
- Lord Tristan Hightower built the Starry Sept in honour of Septon Robeson, who raised him after his father, Lord Damon "the Devout" died of illness. Lord Damon was the first Hightower to accept the faith, and built the first sept in Oldtown as well as six others across his realm. (WoIaF, The Reach: Oldtown).

Interpretations
Size:
- The only clear indicator of size is that in the FfC prologue where Pate describes the manses of the pious as being clustered at its feet. Surely, this would make the sept quite large.
- The quote comparing it to HG's sept and Baelor's only compares splendour and does not imply it is larger or smaller than either.

Color:
- The FfC prologue suggests that the sept is noticeably black from a great distance, meaning it is likely at the very least, mostly black.
- WoIaF indicates it also has dark marble halls, meaning at least some of the interiors are also black marble.

Conclusion
The Starry Sept should be a noticeable landmark on the skyline of Oldtown. It should be significantly taller than a manse. Its size should be a reflection of the Hightower's wealth at the time it was built, which was considerable. It is made of, or at least clad in, black marble, on the outside and at least partly on the inside. While it would be difficult to import all the stone necessary, its location at the mouth of a major river would have made transport from an upriver quarry significantly easier. I believe that no expense would have been spared, and that it was likely built as a proclamation of the Faith's new foothold in the city. There is nothing which would lead me to believe that a source of black marble could not possibly form in the area around Oldtown (or another stone with a similar appearance, see Ashford Black Marble, Noir Belge, and Kilkenny Marble).

Do we also count Fire and Blood canon for the sept or no?

 

[Enah]

If we did then the actual sept can be easily defended by 200 knights standing side by side, and the septon’s palace is inside the sept itself, which is weird and makes it seem like rooms inside the building though we have no idea what early septs may have been like. For all we know this big room we associate with them could be newly developed and maze-like interiors might have been the norm at one point? Idk

 

[CashBanks]

Do we also count Fire and Blood canon for the sept or no?

Yep it’s canon

 

[Jakethesnake8_8]

thanks all for the replies!

so by the septry, i mean the buildings around the sept, the septas and septons wings as well as the silent sisters and faith militant stuff.

would it be appropriate to post tests on this thread?

 

[Azulejo]

Regarding the layout of the complex, Old Saint Peter's Basilica may be a great candidate. It is distributed in a narrow, long plot, in similar fashion to what we currently have in Oldtown. Pope's palace is integrated inside, as well as many service an d religious buildings build by the Catholic Church and private donatios. I looove how "messy" it is: it really shows how old it is, with all those add-ons and clashing styles. Here you can see a reconstrucction of the complex with a brief time evolution:

Reconstruction of the main building


To the right of this image you can see the Sistine Chapel (rectangular tall building with battlements and hip roof) and the Pope's Palace



Also, I may be a little bit biased because this is my home city, but the religious complex in Oviedo (Asturias, Spain) is quite big and interesting. Oviedo's origins are dark, but we know that at one time the Asturian kings decided to move the kingdom capital to its current location, creating a religious-palatial complex that occupied almost half of the city. This is known as a civitas, a urban settlement that lacks some of the fuctions associated with a proper city (mainly economic and industrial), a very common phenomenon in the High Middle Ages. In this time period Oviedo resembles a miniature Aachen, as the Caloringian Kingdom was one of the main models in order to built a royal court (as well as Byzantium and the Ummayad Caliphate in Córdoba).

Oviedo's Cathedral grew overtime with chapells, new towers that replaced the old ones, chambers to store relics, courtyards and adyacent churches, monasteries (both male and female), as well as the palace and the archbishop palaces.

In red is marked the medieval wall perimeter, and in blue the extent of the religious complex



Here you can see the bridge that links the archbishop palace with the cathedral (1st image top right), and a view from the street level. This may be a way to follow the canon that states that the High Septon residence is located inside the Starry Sept, if we consider the Sept as the whole complex.


Anoher view of the complex, with the cathedral and the female monastery (Monasterio de las Pelayas)


For those interested, here you can find many reconstructions from the High Medieval Oviedo, and the evolution of the city. Many of these buildings follow the pre-romanesque style that is used as reference for the Uthor's style of Oldtown: http://www.mirabiliaovetensia.com/index.html

 

[DutchGuard]

These are great inspirations. I especially love the tangential cloister at Oveido, which I have found to be the norm in Britain as well, as opposed to incorporated, centralized ones which we have so far preferred for our septries.

For a building as old as the Starry Sept (depending on who you ask, between 3,000-7,000 years old, as we aren't certain of the date of the Andal invasion), it would make sense that the entire quarter had evolved around the old structure in a manner outlined by Azulejo above.

 

[Jakethesnake8_8]

Here are some of my tests, the OT palette and black marble is my most recent. The surrounding buildings pretty shit except on my latest one

https://imgur.com/a/znB4xbO

 

[AerioOndos]

Hey hey!
I’m going to add my two cents on this.
As a way to keep to canon of dark windows and dark halls, why not have a mix of stone like the Duomo di Sienna?
At least for the buildings that accompany the sept. These would then be black bands and lighter stone and still be visually distictive from the rest of the city, while fulfilling parts of canon about windows.
Also, the halls could have black marble columns and ‘starry’ black marble ceilings.
The description of it being dark could also line up with its defendability. Small high windows = dark at the right time of day.

What I’m thinking on the stone is that’s we already know of a black stone castle in the Red Mountains, Blackhaven of Dondarrion. Stonehelm has also been created in a black and white palette despite there being no canon for it. I think it might also suit if there was a black stone quarry or two around Nightsong, uplands and/or Selmy-Dondarrion.

 

[Azulejo]

As a way to keep to canon of dark windows and dark halls, why not have a mix of stone like the Duomo di Sienna?

Thats a great idea! Also, the use of different cuts of stone as decorations fits perfectly the ancient-southmediterranean-byzantine vibe that we look for Oldtown. Many buildings in Byzantium use those horizontal lines (mainly brick-stone-brick). And it could be justified as a way to reduce the cost of the building, as less balck marble is used. Im feeling Florence too, just with white and dark swapped.

Also, the halls could have black marble columns and ‘starry’ black marble ceilings.

The "starry" may refer to black marble with white specks, or to the external appearance, in which case marble motives as the ones in Sienna may be very fitting.

 

[DutchGuard]

Hey hey!
I’m going to add my two cents on this.
As a way to keep to canon of dark windows and dark halls, why not have a mix of stone like the Duomo di Sienna?
At least for the buildings that accompany the sept. These would then be black bands and lighter stone and still be visually distictive from the rest of the city, while fulfilling parts of canon about windows.
Also, the halls could have black marble columns and ‘starry’ black marble ceilings.
The description of it being dark could also line up with its defendability. Small high windows = dark at the right time of day.

What I’m thinking on the stone is that’s we already know of a black stone castle in the Red Mountains, Blackhaven of Dondarrion. Stonehelm has also been created in a black and white palette despite there being no canon for it. I think it might also suit if there was a black stone quarry or two around Nightsong, uplands and/or Selmy-Dondarrion.

These are great ideas, but you are misreading the canon. The quote is "black marble walls and arched windows". The black colouring is not exclusive to the windows.
I agree that the main sept, or I guess what you might call the main tower, or "dome" should be black while the rest of the sept complex can be whatever colour seems suitable.

I think as a server we have come to expect delicate gradients for all of our buildings and it becomes very hard to accept walls composed of a single block. Personally I don't quite understand this as many historic buildings are monolithic and monochromatic. To me, gradient often seems like an artificial introduction of noise and patina, to make up for the lack of 3D surface texture. This is why people also often prefer "noisy" textures, because they create the illusion of surface depth and make MC blocks appear less flat.

Starry Sept is black. Like, really black, all over. This is clearly what GRRM was imagining and I don't see how it couldn't be.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

My main issue with a pure-black starry sept is a similar issue with all-black stone builds, that they are very very difficult to navigate and near-impossible to see in especially when we're talking about a structure that's going to have a lot of in-game darkness. Even with massive amounts of candles and lanterns the build is going to look like gothic night at a BDSM dungeon during a blackout, and I've seen this issue in every single pure-black stone starry sept test.

 

[CashBanks]

Yeah GRRM’s pretty clear about the interior of the Sept “From the dark marble halls of the Starry Sept, a succession of High Septons donned the crystal crown”, plus Dutch’s quote.

But there’s probably room for interpretation about whether the exterior is all black marble too or if there’s a plain brick facade to cover it.

 

[DutchGuard]

My main issue with a pure-black starry sept is a similar issue with all-black stone builds, that they are very very difficult to navigate and near-impossible to see in especially when we're talking about a structure that's going to have a lot of in-game darkness. Even with massive amounts of candles and lanterns the build is going to look like gothic night at a BDSM dungeon during a blackout, and I've seen this issue in every single pure-black stone starry sept test.

I agree that for our players sake it shouldn't be pitch black, but there are ways around that. A lighter floor or ceiling colour would help with that. I also think we could introduce a few more black marble variants that aren't as dark as our current block.

But there’s probably room for interpretation about whether the exterior is all black marble too or if there’s a plain brick facade to cover it.

I'm not sure what you mean, the quote is "black marble walls and arched windows" which is observed from a great distance. The exterior walls are black marble. There is little room for interpretation there.

 

[CashBanks]

Yeah good point I didn’t read the rest of the quote “Downstream, below the black marble walls and arched windows of the Starry Sept, the manses of the pious clustered like children gathered round the feet of an old dowager.”

shits all black yo

 

[Thamus_Knoward]

Unless polished to a sheen black stone rarely has a dark pure black appearance. It would be more of a dark gray IRL. Maybe it's a good idea to take the time to readjust all dark blocks in our pack.

 

[ContraBlonde]

Yeah good point I didn’t read the rest of the quote “Downstream, below the black marble walls and arched windows of the Starry Sept, the manses of the pious clustered like children gathered round the feet of an old dowager.”

shits all black yo

And thats on PERIODT ✋

 

[Azulejo]

I think as a server we have come to expect delicate gradients for all of our buildings and it becomes very hard to accept walls composed of a single block. Personally I don't quite understand this as many historic buildings are monolithic and monochromatic. To me, gradient often seems like an artificial introduction of noise and patina, to make up for the lack of 3D surface texture.

As a guest I would say one of the biggest achievements of this server are gradients. The way the Red Keep, Winterfell or even a small house look so good and realistic while using just one or two materials is amazing to me. Personally my push on the marble patterned sept is divided between the lack of real life examples of all black structures from where to draft inspo, the problems stated by Margaery with very dark spaces in Minecraft and the fact that it looks very good and it fits the Byzantine inspo.

The exterior walls are black marble. There is little room for interpretation there.

Florence Cathedral has many colorful motifs that from a distance bleed into the façade, making the exterior apear mostly just white. Everyone says that it is white thought, no doubt. But it's true that it could be considered a bit of a stretch. Canon on the Starry Sept is quite clear, and although a more variated exterior could be justified, we can't just assume things that are not stated, and maybe the marble patterns are a stretch. Canon is not only what is mentioned, is also what is not. Such a prominent feature would have being noted if it existed. No one will say Florence's Cathedral isn't white, but no one will just say it has white marble walls without acknowledging the patterns.

 

[ContraBlonde]

I think it would be cool for the Original Sept to be black while the later additions could be other materials like Oldtown, Reach, Arbor, etc. to demonstrate the evolution of the building as well as it’s age, which is something Stoop has been interested in doing if you look at previous posts in this thread. This is a shitty sketch I made a while back showing this concept.

 

[Azulejo]

I think it would be cool for the Original Sept to be black while the later additions could be other materials like Oldtown, Reach, Arbor, etc. to demonstrate the evolution of the building as well as it’s age, which is something Stoop has been interested

That would enhance the fact that is old and constantly growing. Jakethesnake's tests did that and that's one of the things I liked the most about them.

Btw, looking at cathedrals in Italy I came across two that may be of interest:

San Bartolomeo di Patti (really like the black stone, very dark).


San Nicola di Otanna (I'm not a fan of the reddish tint, more basalt/granite like than marble).

 

[ContraBlonde]

That would enhance the fact that is old and constantly growing. Jakethesnake's tests did that and that's one of the things I liked the most about them.

Btw, looking at cathedrals in Italy I came across two that may be of interest:

San Bartolomeo di Patti (really like the black stone, very dark).
View attachment 6685View attachment 6687View attachment 6688View attachment 6689

San Nicola di Otanna (I'm not a fan of the reddish tint, more basalt/granite like than marble).
View attachment 6684View attachment 6686View attachment 6690View attachment 6691

My only problem with doing color-based patterns is that it would not translate well to a very irregular shape like a heptagon, which the starry sept will most likely be. The sides are uneven so any contrasty patterns would look very busy/crunchy as well as being inconsistent on all sides which would not be ideal.