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I'm actually a fan of having it a maze-maker structure but unfortunately it doesn't mention anything with the giant sized proportions of Lorath and Leng's mazes.
The Great Empire of the Dawn also used black stone and far more prolifically, such as for the Five Forts. Maybe the base of the Hightower was built by that Empire or craftsmen of it? Maybe the Dawn Empire was far larger than we thought and it had connections as far as Westeros? We don't have any evidence for the Deep Ones being able to build in black stone apart from at the Hightower, and maybe the Hightower actually has no connection to the Deep Ones at all?
In the theory I linked the Five Forts are said to be made by the Deep Ones, who, as the best architects of their time, where asked by the Great Empire of the Dawn to do so. It's still a theory, but to me seems like the most plausible. There's also the fact that many of the structures made out of black stone that predate Valyria are quite close to the coast (with some very notable exceptions).
Well, the Seastone Chair in the Iron Island is said to be made by them according to maester Theron, and suggested by the floklore. He also points out the similarities between it and the base of the Hightower. The chaotic interior of the structure shows similarities with the mazemakers of Lorath, who are also said to be the builders of it. Interestingly enough, the mazemakers are said to have being destroyed by creatures from the sea (maybe they learned techniques from them before ending their society?). There also another structure made out of black stone, a giant toad statue at the Isle of Toads, near Sothoryos. The people from this island are said to be fish-like. From here the links with the rest of structures are weaker, but not impossible.
I don't think GRRM is never going to "resolve the mystery", as with all this stories and mysterious conections he is emulating how medieval europeans viewed Asia and the reamins of the civilizations before them, and how little they were sure about. The best design we can come with is one that allows several interpretations. That way the maesters discussing makes the most sense.
The only theory I'm not a fan of is the valyrian origin. It isn't impossible, in fact is the most logical, but the Freehold is such a well known part of history across Essos and Westeros that having so many examples of its presence so far away from what its known seems weird. To me it just shows how this structures are vast and show a technology similar to the closest know example to the common people, in this case Valyria. IRL it's quite common that archeological remains are labeled by the locals "roman" or "arab" (in Iberia), even if it corresponds to another period of time. It's the thing they know, so they make asumptions with it. Also several times the disimilarities between the decorations and general aspect between black stone structures and Valyrian architecture is pointed. The only thing that could justify a valyrian origin to me would be it being a way to give Oldtown an equivalent status to the Free Cities, as another "Daughter of Valyria", or some fled dragonlord that for some reason ended up here.
As the Deep Ones are established to be fictional and/or a rationalisation of sailors in the Dawn Age, we should consider the mazemakers of Lorath as the most likeliest origin. I am thinking Azulujo's tunnel designs and the tunnel patterns under the Red Keep are the way forward
In all situations the Deep Ones are never confirmed to answer prayers or appear. Heck the Deep Ones could be the krakens or leviathans of the Shivering Sea, who soldiers pray to for a smooth krakenless journey *RELEASE THE KRAHKEN*
I think the Starry Sept area should be expanded. Currently, the area is not big enough for the sept, and accompanying buildings mentioned in the OT document. Additionally, it used to be a hub for the Faith, and the area marked out for it just doesn't cut it in my opinion. I've visited a few religious buildings recently, abbeys, priories, cathedrals, and they take up a large amount of space, with a variety of buildings being a part of the greater complex. For example, there are chapter houses, refectories, dormitories, kitchens, storage on top of the septa/septon wings, halls of the silent sisters and faith militant. I think such a significant landmark of the Faith should be given more space in a city like Oldtown. I think there needs to be a significant expansion of the area, especially since there is a sept and septry plotted East of the Starry Sept, which is too big. A sept that size would necessitate the Starry Sept being much bigger, something that is unachievable given the current area.
Not entirely sure how this is too little space. The Starry Sept area is already larger than several other districts in the city. I feel like if you're worried about another septry being too big, that could be reduced in size rather than the Starry Sept area being increased.
The other sept was an afterthought. My main concern is that there is not nearly enough space in the sept itself, not the names districts around it. To clarify, I mean the pink area, which is the starry sept and accompanying buildings, needs to be expanded in order to fit the build.
I think with clever usage of space and perspective, the available space should be sufficient and any bigger and we run the risk of making something that feels altogether too large and massive
I mean, according to both the map and the OT document, the entire area I circled in red belongs to the Starry Sept. So, wouldn't it make sense for the accompanying buildings to span the whole area? I don't think the pink section has ever been intended to fit the entire SS complex.
There's a bit of an ambiguity: The district called 'Starry Sept', which lemon points out, does include the sept itself, naturally. It also includes the neighborhood around the sept, so buildings that are unrelated to the sept itself.
The pink area is preliminary, but was intended to indicate the area of the core sept complex when it was layed out. The new subdistrict layout labelled 'Starry Sept' is meant to include the sept complex's core structures, while the adjacent subdistricts (labelled SSA, SSB, SSC and SSD) make up the Starry Sept district and include both secondary structures from the sept complex, but also buildings unrelated to the sept.
To think that the sept might become too small is a valid opinion to have, if the preliminary marker is used for reference. But I'd advise to wait until the Starry Sept server build is being tackled. Like every other server build it will be laid out in wool ahead of time and people will be able to comment on the size and makeup of the layout and any of its features then. It doesn't really make sense to comment on plans that are yet to be made, but the point on size shall be duly noted.
As the Deep Ones are established to be fictional and/or a rationalisation of sailors in the Dawn Age, we should consider the mazemakers of Lorath as the most likeliest origin. I am thinking Azulujo's tunnel designs and the tunnel patterns under the Red Keep are the way forward
In all situations the Deep Ones are never confirmed to answer prayers or appear. Heck the Deep Ones could be the krakens or leviathans of the Shivering Sea, who soldiers pray to for a smooth krakenless journey *RELEASE THE KRAHKEN*
The Deep Ones is an idea put forth by a Maester who was born on the Iron Islands (Theron Pyke) and compares the Hightower base and the Seastone chair.
And the deep ones are very much established as potentially real. The unusual features of the people of the Sisters in the Vale, Toad Isle and the Thousand Isles suggest that Theron's ideas and the Cracklaw legends of the 'Squishers' line up. It occurs far too often over the known world for it to just be a rationalisation of sea raiders. They also have been compared to Lorathi mazes by Maester Quillon but there is no mention of the larger than human height or descending deep into the earth like the mazes of Leng or Lorassyon. The Hightower base stands apart from these suggestions in material i.e. HT base - fused black stone, maze makers of Lorath - carved stone, Lengii - stone has been reduced to ruins on the surface therefore not black stone, Toad Isle/Seastone chair - oily black stone.
However, I like the idea of uncomfortable geometry to the shape, making it feel vaguely inhuman will create that atmosphere of mystery/tin foil hat feeling. However, maybe there should be inspiration from the descriptions of Leng to give possible credit to Quillon's theory?
Leng's history goes back almost as far as that of Yi Ti itself, but little and less of it is known west of the Jade Straits. There are queer ruins in the depths of the island's jungle: massive buildings, long fallen, and so overgrown that rubble remains above the surface...but underground, we are told, endless labyrinths of tunnels lead to vast chambers, and carved steps descend hundreds of feet into the earth. No man can say who might have built these cities, or when. They remain perhaps the only remnant of some vanished people.
Hi! So... I don't know why I decided to detriment my brain by doing this, but, I collected inspiration photos, descriptions and information of houses I believe have at least 1 aspect to them that can be of inspiration for a house in Oldtown. I was lucky to discover the arquitectural archive of the French Ministry of Culture (https://www.pop.culture.gouv.fr/search/mosaic?base=["Patrimoine architectural (Mérimée)"]&image=["oui"]), and by using their filter options I compiled 3 albums of images, the first comprising of 89 images of 11th and 12th century examples, the second of 80 images of the conclusion of the 12th century and 13th century examples and the last one of 203 images of 14th and 15th century examples.
Things to keep in mind:
-All the examples can be found in the southern half of France, the majority coming from the Nouvelle-Aquitaine and Occitanie regions (the Provence region had close to 0 medieval houses), although some other regions could have examples that can be used as inspiration for Oldtown, for consistency sake and my sake (these 2 regions already amount to hundreds of images, more would be a nightmare) I sticked primarily with these 2.
-This is an INSPIRATION compilation, these are not the strict requirements and sole styles that can be used in Oldtown. Medieval architecture specially in the late years is very connected to religious imagery and sculpture motifs, since Westeros isn't catholic, the design elements and some other features can and should be different, so no the fact that there's some image showing a sculpture of a saint or a painted wall with christian motifs doesn't mean I'm trying to say Oldtown or Westerosi architecture should have such imagery.
-And lastly, these are by no means fun inspiration albums, they are dare-I-say quite exhaustive and boring for the most part, a lot of images are in black and white since a lot of the buildings shown were demolished or fell into ruins, and a lot of buildings are similar to each other or have little to offer. So the main objective here is to help others understand not only how they can build x house but to differentiate the centuries of medieval French architecture.
As for aspects that I found/discovered in this endeavour, the main thing I have noticed is that iregular and chaotic constructions aren't a product of medieval architecture in itself but of additions made to buildings. Weird nooks and side buildings and other features weren't planned in the main beginning construction phase, on contrary, most buildings were fairly orderly and generally presented a square or rectangle plan, being the square plan most favoured in the southern half of France.
Another aspect is the fact that until the 15th century onwards, the quality of construction and it's adornments and detailing weren't reserved solely for the higher classes. You would find adorned lintels, carved columns and even painted walls and wood carvings in middle to low middle class houses, of course they wouldn't even reach half of the mastery that the higher classes could afford, but decoration was still somewhat prevalent. Even in lower class rural houses that had an abbey as their sovereign could have sophisticated architecture for their class (see the "Houses of the fields" segment towards the end of this chapter of the Reasoned dictionary of French architecture from the 11th to the 16th century https://fr.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionnaire_raisonné_de_l’architecture_française_du_XIe_au_XVIe_siècle/Maison# where they describe the typical rural peasant houses).
P.S.:The site was all in French so I used the safari option to translate it to English, so if there's any phrase or word that sounds odd is because it was automatically translated, and some of it can be wrong.
All in all I hope these albums help you in any way.
Thank you for reading,
Seri
The University (Kingkiller) and The Citadel (ASOIAF) - kingkiller.md
gist.github.com
A document sorta riffing about how the Citadel's interiors could take cues from the University in Kingkiller Chronicles.
The usual... "Take it or leave it" and "this is not official" etc
What is the climate and vegetation of Oldtown and its area? As far as I know it was stayed that it was somewhat mediterranean, but the area, at the same time, uses plains biome instead of mushroom island (not that this excludes the possibility of been Mediterranean). Any iconic trees or plants to the city scape or the forests at the outskirts of the town? What would be an equivalent in real life in terms of climate or vegetation?
What is the climate and vegetation of Oldtown and its area? As far as I know it was stayed that it was somewhat mediterranean, but the area, at the same time, uses plains biome instead of mushroom island (not that this excludes the possibility of been Mediterranean). Any iconic trees or plants to the city scape or the forests at the outskirts of the town? What would be an equivalent in real life in terms of climate or vegetation?
Oldtown has a climate similar to the Mediterranean, experiencing warm to hot summers and mild winters. We opted for a plains biome rather than mushroom island in order to set it apart from the Westerlands. With similar and at times even the same inspiration and references as the Westerlands, keeping both regions unique has been one of our main challenges. If people think this is an error, we're open to discuss it.
While we have a fairly good idea of how we want the city to be, we plan to rely much more on the creativity and knowledge of team leaders with regards of the types of plants and trees natural to the environment (in other words, we know jackshit about nature). We did make an effort to come up with a logical economy for the city, and by extension with a number of plants found in the environment. Cereals, grapes, olives, figs and the kermes oak are plants we have named to be found around Oldtown based on the economies of medieval Constantinople, Florence and Rome.
In addition, we have canon indicating the environment is fit to grow apples, melons, peaches, pomegrenates and nightshade.
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gist.github.com
