Oldtown: Feedback and Suggestions

[SseriousBusiness]

I really liked going through all the inspiration images in the huge google drive folder, I gathered a small amount of medieval places here in Portugal, not all are necessarily fit for Oldtown but I found them useful and interesting nonetheless, specially the military structures/castles, the hospital, the medieval Lisbon map and the roman and medieval bridges, feel free to use/not use them

And also! Congrats Iwan and stoop for an incredible doc! Read the whole thing and found it very clarifying, organised and well thought-out.

https://imgur.com/a/LTiaRCn

 

[Azulejo]

I'm feeling this general area would be great for some of the inspo you gathered

 

[Enah]

Yelshire is finished and Sunhouse is finished, though there's plenty fo room for immersion builds

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

Pommingham needs some nuking

 

[Azulejo]

Yelshire is finished and Sunhouse is finished, though there's plenty fo room for immersion builds

I don't want to despise the work that has already been done, but Sunhouse is quite old, has big empty areas, and uses outdated styles, such as full logs or messy timber frames. And when Oldtown and its surroundings develop a style, it would stand out. Sooner than later a facelift would be needed. Creating a cohesive Southern Reach is key for a great Oldtown project, in my opinion.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

I don't want to despise the work that has already been done, but Sunhouse is quite old, has big empty areas, and uses outdated styles, such as full logs or messy timber frames. And when Oldtown and its surroundings develop a style, it would stand out. Sooner than later a facelift would be needed. Creating a cohesive Southern Reach is key for a great Oldtown project, in my opinion.

Sunhouse at best requires an update and immersions to fill in those empty areas. Not a full redo. And by empty areas I don't mean to say that it should all be developed land, we can leave large expanses of it rural or natural which a lot of the Reach lacks areas of natural space

Pommingham however is beyond saving.

 

[Azulejo]

Oh yeah for sure, I didn't mean to say that it had to be destroyed, just revisited. And by "empty areas" I meant spaces wiht little interventions, not that it should be all filled with farmland or forest. Sorry if I have expressed myself incorrectly.

 

[EStoop]

Just to be clear, we have no intentions of expanding the greater Oldtown area to include any more projects than stated in the Oldtown document.

 

[AerioOndos]

So this is essentially going to be like Locke of Oldcastle. A separate project that will be influenced by the larger project and best finished after the larger project has materialised.

 

[EStoop]

As far as I am concerned both projects are finished and are not eligable for redo under our current redo rules.

 

[AerioOndos]

yes, there is no canon we can use for an excuse, I think. Terrain updates in between existing stuff sounds like the only option so far.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

I disagree, I think that as soon as the Oldtown style is set, Pommingham should be put up into consideration for either a heavy (and I mean heavy) update or redo.

 

[Jakethesnake8_8]

Is this where you post tests for OT or is there/will there be a separate thread for that?

 

[Jakethesnake8_8]

Happy holidays,
Hope you are all well
I've got some questions regarding the Starry Sept for the OT core. Just a couple of confusions I think people will benefit from.

- In the OT doc (great read btw) it listed some canon about the sept which I couldn't find using a search of ice and fire. It also was not on the linked canon sheet. So for applicants, it's a little confusing about what the septry portion should look like in terms of layout.
- If the canon listed in the doc is to be considered accurate, then the space allotted for the septry makes it a struggle to squish everything inside the plots and still have the roads be functional.
- The size of the sept is the second largest in Westeros, and as such contributes to the space issue because the sept has to be a minimum size
- It doesn't make logical sense to have the whole sept be black marble or black stone, because Marg pointed out that importing that material would be costly, and ineffective, so would the regular OT palette with the black marble set into it as accents be acceptable?

Dutch, Eld SSeri and I had a big discussion about this the other day and agreed the forums is the best place to address this, because it really was a head scratcher for us.

Kind regards,

Jake

 

[Iwan]

Thanks for the questions!

I'm not certain on the canon right now, will have to read that part of the doc again. Will get back to you about this later.

The area the sept is not set yet. I believe we need to make every effort to not let it get too large, but we'll make sure there's enough space for everything that's required.

Not sure what septry you refer to.

A mixed palette is a-ok with us, and, considering some of the tests I've seen, probably desired.

 

[EStoop]

To answer your question about the canon in the doc, I think you're referring to the description of the sept in the Starry Sept chapter. That description is just the vision we have for the complex, as is the case with all other district descriptions.

While it's not canon, we think a layout similar to the one we described would result in an interesting, chaotic yet cohesive Starry Sept complex.

As for the palette, it's something we're looking into (if anyone has some good irl reference of medieval use of actual black stone, pm me).

Also everything Iwan said ;-).

 

[Azulejo]

Clermont-Ferrand Cathedral is built with a local variety of stone, Pierre de Volvic, that ranges from light to very dark grey. Although its dark exterior is likely due to dirt built up, the base color of the stone definitely contributes.



Here you can see how the different shades of stone are used to create a pattern. The darkest one is quite black.


Most examples of black stone are from volcanic regions, where basalt is the main building rock. Sorry, I don't know if I can PM you.

 

[DutchGuard]

Quick round up of Starry Sept canon, let me know if I've missed anything:

Canon
Appearance:
- It has "black marble walls and arched windows", visible from the exterior, as seen from a bridge near the Quill and Tankard. (Prologue, FfC)
- Also visible from this vantage point are the manses of the pious "clustered like children gathered round the feet of an old dowager". (Prologue, FfC)
- It has "dark marble halls" (WoIaF, The Reach: Oldtown).
- It is counted among the three "great monuments" of Oldtown, along with the Citadel and Hightower. (WoIaF, The Reach: Oldtown).
- The splendour of the castle sept at Highgarden is "rivaled only by that of the Great Sept of Baelor in King's Landing and the Starry Sept of Oldtown." (WoIaF, The Reach: Highgarden).

Significance:
- The Starry Sept has been the seat of the High Septon for a thousand years before Aegon's Conquest. (Prologue, FfC)
- The official start of Aegon's rule is from when he was crowned and anointed in the Starry Sept. (WoIaF, The Reach: Oldtown).
- Lord Tristan Hightower built the Starry Sept in honour of Septon Robeson, who raised him after his father, Lord Damon "the Devout" died of illness. Lord Damon was the first Hightower to accept the faith, and built the first sept in Oldtown as well as six others across his realm. (WoIaF, The Reach: Oldtown).

Interpretations
Size:
- The only clear indicator of size is that in the FfC prologue where Pate describes the manses of the pious as being clustered at its feet. Surely, this would make the sept quite large.
- The quote comparing it to HG's sept and Baelor's only compares splendour and does not imply it is larger or smaller than either.

Color:
- The FfC prologue suggests that the sept is noticeably black from a great distance, meaning it is likely at the very least, mostly black.
- WoIaF indicates it also has dark marble halls, meaning at least some of the interiors are also black marble.

Conclusion
The Starry Sept should be a noticeable landmark on the skyline of Oldtown. It should be significantly taller than a manse. Its size should be a reflection of the Hightower's wealth at the time it was built, which was considerable. It is made of, or at least clad in, black marble, on the outside and at least partly on the inside. While it would be difficult to import all the stone necessary, its location at the mouth of a major river would have made transport from an upriver quarry significantly easier. I believe that no expense would have been spared, and that it was likely built as a proclamation of the Faith's new foothold in the city. There is nothing which would lead me to believe that a source of black marble could not possibly form in the area around Oldtown (or another stone with a similar appearance, see Ashford Black Marble, Noir Belge, and Kilkenny Marble).

 

[Elduwin]

While it would be difficult to import all the stone necessary, its location at the mouth of a major river would have made transport from an upriver quarry significantly easier. I believe that no expense would have been spared, and that it was likely built as a proclamation of the Faith's new foothold in the city. There is nothing which would lead me to believe that a source of black marble could not possibly form in the area around Oldtown (or another stone with a similar appearance, see Ashford Black Marble, Noir Belge, and Kilkenny Marble).

Quite interesting alternative, that black limestone. Considering the large sedimentary basin Oldtown is standing on, the idea of a black limestone quarry upriver could be the best option to make it realistic, not too expensive and still have the "black marble" from the canon. We can assume they might not make the difference between this stone and actual marble, and just call it marble due to the shininess and appearance.

If we're going for real geological marble, it's a metamorphic stone, meaning they'd find it in areas with dense geological activity, which in our world would probably be along the western side of the Red mountains (kind of the geological equivalent of the Pyrenees (not in color ofc)). In France, Pyrenees have large marble quarries, others can be found in Provence.

 

[Azulejo]

In France, Pyrenees have large marble quarries, others can be found in Provence.

There's some beautiful black marble in Basque Country, known as Negro Marquina. I still think the use of a stone other than marble is the best, as Elduwin said.