Completed Project Application: Duskendale

[Veggie]

Hi there,

People around on the server will know I've been working on this for a little while. I am 100% receptive to feedback, and am seeking to make this as collaborative a "server build" as possible.

Click the sigil to view the application!

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I may have missed things which are obvious to some, and am conscious the tests could be considered lacking for now, so please do let me know if you'd like to see more of something.

However, I figured this would be best to get the ball rolling sooner rather than later.

Cheers!

Veg

 

[SeapunkPeaches]

yay

 

[Ben]

So excited. Tests look great!

 

[Enah]

Hey, I thinks good reference to why the walls shimmer pale is maybe it’s a stone type like Caen, as is used in Dover and Canterbury Cathedral. When new or taken care of it’s pale and whiteish.
Also, I think there is not a large enough sprawl for the city, possibly by lordly design to provide more incomes within the walls than without.

I also would discourage a “loose” style. Eagerness does not always quality make, it can also lead to constant changes or nuking with in areas as has been seen in some places that allowed looseness, including Highgarden. I personally don’t like what appears to be a 2wide overhang on the lower class test pics. I find the base houses just right though, so hopefully builders won’t get too side tracked from them

 

[Veggie]

Honestly, it could be any stone-- I figured the shimmering paleness is either due to the reflection of the water, or the dappled morning sunlight. I would be reticent to apply a small stone brick-style palette as I fear it would look too similar to many of the other towns, Stony Sept, Sweetport, Maidenpool etc.

I would be willing to look at a palette more akin to somewhere like /warp parchments which I feel utilises a paler stone well, without it verging too far to brilliant white. I would be interested to hear your views on this!

In regards to the sprawl-- it'll ultimately be defined by what is going on in the town. In terms of inspiration/vibe, if that's helpful, I would seek to create something akin to KL's sprawl, but with fewer lordly manors/mances. The village I built at Rosby would be the style I want to pursue-- but grittier.

Brienne comments on the agricultural products being sold at the market by the locals, so this is my source of inspiration. I want a sprawl that is structured around personal agricultural plots rather than huge pastures etc. I think this will ultimately lend itself well to Duskendale, as it's very much sandwiched between projects which have not long been completed.



In regards to the tests, I agree. I think 'loose' was a clumsy choice of words. Essentially I'd seek to build 3-4 of the plots in any open 'zone', as a set 'style'. People would still have to build within those tight parameters of that style, but with the freedom to build any given plot as they see fit.

This was the approach taken at White Harbour, with great success.

In regards to the overhang, it's not actually the case it's two wide in game-- either that or I don't quite understand what you mean!

Hope this clarifies some things!

- Veg


EDIT: I just spotted the two block overhang! Total mistake, please ignore!

 

[Enah]

The sprawl should be almost non existent. Brienne doesn’t mention any houses or lil markets outside the walls, which also shouldn’t be dun. The red walls makes it a mini-semi-rural kl. Normal stone should be used or you take away from kl’s specialness. As well as the chalk cliffs give a good indication of what kind of stone would be locally sourced.

I highly recommend talking to stoop

 

[Veggie]

By sprawl, I'm referring to the environs as a whole. Apologies for the miscommunication. They are farmed in the canon, and I would seek to create small clusters of serfs. You can see these in the lands at Rosby, no more than 3-4 houses where people who work the fields live.

I, regrettably, don't agree at all that we should go for dark cobble, stone brick, lighter stone brick walled structure (if this is what you're suggesting). Especially as 3 out of the 5 surrounding builds lean on a redder palette rather than the stone.

Could we come to some compromise? I am mindful that this is one of the important Crownlands builds, and to me the Crownlands are defined by their unique 'dun block' palettes. I think it'd be a shame to have Duskendale miss out on this.
Ultimately, the houses themselves in KL aren't primarily built with Dun, so I don't think this detracts from it's 'specialness' at all, KL is the capital after all and will always stand head and shoulders among most builds in importance.

Furthermore, I think it would be good to build structures within the enivrons of the builds to reflect the block usage, maybe some brickworks, some clay pits alongside the river (which will need updating anyway to reflect our new much more beautiful rivers).

I hope this has gone some way to allay your concerns,

Veg

 

[Enah]

I withdraw my statements. Enjoy

 

[Veggie]

Thanks Enah, please don't view my posts as being dismissive, as that's not my intention by any stretch. There are some things I definitely would be eager to stonewall through, the lovely dun block palette being one of them.

Cheers,

Veg

 

[Iwan]

Hi veg, big fan.

I'd like to ask you for a few things before I'd approve.

• a better overview of the houses, and which classes and professions they'd generally be associated with, I can't really tell from the tests on your plot. Maybe just organise them a bit more thoroughly (would help the builders, too!) - if you wish to use the Rosby rural houses, that's OK with me, just copy a few examples over, please.
  
• a map that roughly outlines your plans with the surrounds. Just to get a general idea that's a bit more specific than 'fields be here'. This doesn't have to be more than just a sketch.

I'd also like you to consider the following, rather loose thoughts

• no weirwood trees unless canon dictates so
• Auldwall? Wow, ripping off OT!
• Please consider adding Lychyard(s)
• At OT we're going to try to separate residential and industrial plots - maybe dedicated some plots solely to certain industries would be something for you to consider (forges, tanners, ... stuff that takes up large spaces and is potentially rather unwelcome in residential areas)
  
• you mention updating the river - what are your plans for that? Lowering it to avoid the 2 or 3 block steps around Duskendale could easily be done (by adding a mill somewhere upstream, for instance), and I'd recommend doing so, but redoing the entire river would be quite a task due to how tightly it's been integrated in other projects.

Thus far for now, thanks for your time, eager to read your thoughts.

 

[CashBanks]

Yeah I’m scratching my head on the dun brick color.
“Dun” is defined as “of a dull greyish-brown colour”, which could possibly be traced to the “dun” variety of horse notable for having a “sandy or sandy-grey coat”.

But was the horse named after the color, or the color named after the horse?

And Dun also refers to a type of a broche like fortification, "stone-built fortified settlement in Scotland or Ireland, of a kind built from the late Iron Age to the early Middle Ages. The word is a frequent place-name element in Scotland and Ireland."

The word's origin apparently comes from the proto-celtic word *Dūno-, yielding Greek δοῦνον and apparantly equivalent to English word for town.

So how it ended up the name of a dull red brick I have no idea, maybe emote can shed some light on it.

Anyway, ignore my ramblings, I'm excited to see plans moving forward.

 

[Darkaveger_13]

In my opinion, I think the main castle could follow the Duskendale look we see in AWOIAF more, being an extended part of the city petruding a bit beyond the walls like this:

I like the city layout itself though and I think regardless of what is choosen its gonna look amazing

 

[SeapunkPeaches]

The canon is that the castle is separated from the town walls - it is stated so in the app

 

[Darkaveger_13]

Well I mean technically The Duskendale above is also canon as its from AWOIAF

 

[SeapunkPeaches]

Awoiaf pics are often not depicted well and according to the canon

 

[Iwan]

We actually explicitly do not list the Wiki as a valid source of canon information because of this.

 

[Veggie]

Thanks for the feedback all,

I'll be sure to address these by playing around some more in game.

• a better overview of the houses, and which classes and professions they'd generally be associated with, I can't really tell from the tests on your plot. Maybe just organise them a bit more thoroughly (would help the builders, too!) - if you wish to use the Rosby rural houses, that's OK with me, just copy a few examples over, please.
  
• a map that roughly outlines your plans with the surrounds. Just to get a general idea that's a bit more specific than 'fields be here'. This doesn't have to be more than just a sketch.

I'd also like you to consider the following, rather loose thoughts

• no weirwood trees unless canon dictates so
• Auldwall? Wow, ripping off OT!
• Please consider adding Lychyard(s)
• At OT we're going to try to separate residential and industrial plots - maybe dedicated some plots solely to certain industries would be something for you to consider (forges, tanners, ... stuff that takes up large spaces and is potentially rather unwelcome in residential areas)
  
• you mention updating the river - what are your plans for that? Lowering it to avoid the 2 or 3 block steps around Duskendale could easily be done (by adding a mill somewhere upstream, for instance), and I'd recommend doing so, but redoing the entire river would be quite a task due to how tightly it's been integrated in other projects.

I agree, I will break down the model again, and more accurately plot areas along profession lines. I view Duskendale as a city past its prime, so filthy professions like tanners would be something I think would be useful to plot decent chunks to. I recognise my lower class tests are a bit too wishy-washy at present, so will put something more cohesive together for everyone.

I'll rustle up my paint skills to get you a map, for sure.


For your second points;

Agree on the weirwood. My head canon is that the Rykkers likely chopped down the Weirwood upon being granted Duskendale following the first men House Darklyn.

I don't know why I didn't spell it 'old wall', but I clearly had OT on the mind.

Lichyards would be around the septs which I've tried to leave plenty of room for, but will make these better marked on my new model, for sure!

I hadn't thought of actually lowering the river, but am now convinced it's actually the best course of action. I think next to Stokeworth castle would be great. Often in history the lord would have direct ownership of the mills, and lease these to their serfs, so it works logically. Furthermore, Stokeworth was mine, so I feel no guilt about modifying it a little.



Regarding the image in AWOIAF, there are elements of the castle I like, and may seek to emulate, but ultimately it is in direct conflict with information from the book series itself.


Hope this clarifies some things!

 

[Wazgamer]

*translates dunfort into english from gaelic* "fortfort" WAIT WHAT

 

[Darkaveger_13]

Awoiaf pics are often not depicted well and according to the canon

Oh well, I see. Now I know

 

[lemonbear]

So, I can see we're having some issues with etymology. While it is true that one type of "dun" can be a type of Scottish castle (late 18th century: from Irish dún, Scottish Gaelic dùn ‘hill or hill fort’), our type of "dun" has the following etymology:

dun (adj.)
Old English dunn "dingy brown; dark-colored," perhaps from Celtic (compare Old Irish donn "dark;" Gaelic donn "dull; dark brown; dark;" Welsh dwnn "brownish"), from PIE *donnos, *dusnos "dark." As a noun, "dun color," 1560s; as "a dun horse" from late 14c. The "horse" meaning is that the figurative expression dun is in the mire "things are at a standstill or deadlocked," which occurs in both Chaucer and Shakespeare. Dun also is likely the origin of the surnames Dunn, Dunne, Donne, Dunning, etc.
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So, it's clearly supposed to be a dull/dark brownish color. We decided to go with more of a red so the transition between the KL walls and the Red Keep wasn't so extreme.