Oldtown: Feedback and Suggestions

[ContraBlonde]

(cont.)

Developing Oldtown has thus far taken more than 3 years. 3 years ago I picked up the project after it was dropped. I have been working on Oldtown related stuff since 2012, I remember distinctly how I started a certain Oldtown model that you would eventually finish after I left for my hiatus.
I am very aware that a great number of people have great interest in and care deeply about Oldtown. I am aware that people would have waited forever and would start build it sooner rather than later. I am doing what I can to get closer to this goal every day.

It has always been a parallel process. The plans were originally to start terraforming and preparing the infrastructure (major road networks, walls, sewers,...) in parallel with completing a new, more thorough, better thought out and clearer document that highlights the stylistic and architectural information to create a basis on which people could test styles, and lays down clear and easy to follow rules and guidelines for people to follow. I did not expect both processes (the terraforming and infrastructure process and the document writing process) to take as long as they did - and still do - , and I did not expect the one process to overtake the other: the terraforming/infrastructure process that's happening on the server started to blend over into the style development. There is still stuff to finish regarding infrastructure, for instance the sewers on the west bank which were started but not yet finished. But I think that I too deserve to postpone unpleasant tasks and focus on something more entertaining every now and then.

Both processes are close to being finished, however, and I decided to suspend any further work on Oldtown proper now until the document has caught up and everyone has had enough time to dissect it as much as they desire.

I know that I could have done a lot better to make Oldtown a more transparent and open approach. I am much personally much better at doing things rather than talking about them, and the organization, maintenance and upkeep of communicative tools such as Asana or Trello, writing update posts on the forums or discussing an idea, test or feedback with someone are actual work and take me an immense amount of time. I am genuinely sorry and I apologize to the entire community that - not if - I have neglected many aspects of it, especially update posts. I will try to improve on this in the future.

At the same time I would like to ask one thing from the community. I wish people would instead of seeing that we still haven't achieved what we all hoped to achieve much sooner focus on what we have already accomplished. I prompt you to look back and remember how the southern reach, how Oldtown looked 1, 2 or 3 years ago. We have come a long way. And as the one who has had to do the pulling on the majority of the way I can guarantee you that it wasn't an easy one. So, if there is currently a bit of an upheaval about progress on Oldtown, I hope you don't mind me pointing out that it isn't the presumably prestigious tasks of developing a style or building a landmark but the unpleasant ones that hold back progress, and I wish that there had been as much enthusiasm for terraforming or laying out roads or sewers as there is now for building retaining walls and river banks. And as mentioned above, it's not for the lack of asking for help with these things.
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Lastly, on a personal note.
You say you aren't happy with how Oldtown is being organized. That's your right. I just want to point out that it is not my aspiration to make you or any individual happy, neither with how I organize this build nor with how it will look when it's once finished. It'd be naive to expect that a project of this magnitude and importance to our diverse community will not leave some disappointed. My entire concern lies with enabling this community to produce the best city build possible to turn Oldtown into something we can all be proud of. But I will always respect individual opinions and - I have explained this already - will try my best to accommodate for them as best as I can.

And I have a bit of feedback for you, Tham.
First, I'd wish that you would stop painting yourself as an outsider, as you say. As a former mod and former (server) project leader you know the ins and outs of how this community is being run, and the people behind it, and have a substantially larger understanding than the vast majority of members about what we can and cannot, and want and want not do.

Second, And that regards the way you decided to go about delivering this feedback, yesterday on the server and in this post.
For someone who, like you, has a truly singular access to me, who I consider a close friend and whose opinions I have not only always respected but also repeatedly sought out, and who is certainly one of the chief promoters of establishing a healthy and respectful feedback culture in our community, to lash out at me like you did yesterday was very confusing, and I do not exaggerate when I say that it hurt my feelings. Terms like "cabal", "nefarious", or snarky remarks like "which of the locked threads" I was going to open - wrongfully implying I would silence and ignore community feedback - , as well as constructing further straw men like the alleged absence of a Trello board, while it's linked visibly for anyone to find who cares to read up on Oldtown stuff, are not only disrespectful and counter-productive, they are plain toxic and obnoxious. You can not talk to me like this.
I don't know how much frustration you might have had bottled up about how I run Oldtown, and I'm certain that there are reasons of which I am anything but innocent of that you may be frustrated about. But I think it's hardly my fault if you haven't chosen to talk to me directly about what you think goes awry, in a plain and respectful manner - if the repeated discussions about how you might help with Oldtown in the past couple days were meant to be hints, I'm sorry, but I didn't pick up on it and I wish you had just spelled it out for me in one of the many private conversations we have recently had. I am certainly aware of many of my shortcomings, and I don't think I have ever taken offense to having further ones pointed out, and you ought to know that.
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tl;dr: You're right that communication is lacking. You are not right that we are excluding the community from building at Oldtown. We are still in the development stage, and the action you see at Oldtown is part of setting up style guides. Contributions are strictly encouraged. Work on Oldtown however is suspended now until the Document caught up. While I will always try my best to listen to productive feedback I'm not going to stand any further snarky remarks or general aggressiveness over how I handle Oldtown.

Question:Is this the document that you’re talking about right?https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B87uz3K6xJM2QTQ2azJSQk96d1k/view

 

[CashBanks]

Question:Is this the document that you’re talking about right?https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B87uz3K6xJM2QTQ2azJSQk96d1k/view

Indeed but they're working on an update to it.

 

[Enah]

That's the old version, it is no longer the same document at all. Viva la @EStoop's writing skills

 

[an_escaped_duck]

I think I speak for everyone in saying that the leads of oldtown have done a great job so far on the monumental task that is planning and executing the second largest (canonically, idk how the work on this relates to KL but it is probably comprable) area on the server. I certainly couldn't do what you guys are doing, and I'm grateful the project is in such capable hands.

I would just like to point out something though, which is that if there were a larger sense of community surrounding the project, people would be more likely to finish small tasks and get on with the boring stuff in the name of progress. I remember when the original OT document first dropped, dozens of people were testing all kinds of stuff in playground and helping develop their small visions of what the project would eventually become. I think if we can recapture that sense of engagement and excitement, we could get a lot done together. Again, I think the leaders are doing a great job, and obviously it is hard to involve everyone in the project, especially those who don't have the skill and experience of mods/the most active players. All I want to say is that the whole community is invested in this project, and myself and probably many others would be happy to help out with the boring prep work if there were some widely available, simple, and clearly delineated tasks.

 

[ContraBlonde]

Indeed but they're working on an update to it.

Thanks, what are they updating/changing? If you don’t mind me asking?

Is the desired vision/style changing or is it just becoming more specific and in incorporating new ideas, blocks, etc?

 

[AerioOndos]

Thanks, what are they updating/changing? If you don’t mind me asking?

Is the desired vision/style changing or is it just becoming more specific and in incorporating new ideas, blocks, etc?

I can answer your questions later in the day outside in the conversation I started with you earlier, if that would help.

 

[EStoop]

Thanks, what are they updating/changing? If you don’t mind me asking?

Is the desired vision/style changing or is it just becoming more specific and in incorporating new ideas, blocks, etc?

The new document would have clearer guidelines, updated descriptions of the neighbourhoods and an update to the style, as well as several other changes.

These changes are based on the feedback, ideas and tests we received after publishing the original document and the geographical challenged which have become more clear due to the terraforming.

In addition of providing the community with a clear overview of the plans and guidelines of Oldtown, the document also presents inspriation in the form of maps, reconstructions and pictures. While the inspiration provided in the previous document was from all over Europe, the updated inspiration has been carefully selected from Mediterranean sources more fitting to Oldtown.

 

[ContraBlonde]

The new document would have clearer guidelines, updated descriptions of the neighbourhoods and an update to the style, as well as several other changes.

These changes are based on the feedback, ideas and tests we received after publishing the original document and the geographical challenged which have become more clear due to the terraforming.

In addition of providing the community with a clear overview of the plans and guidelines of Oldtown, the document also presents inspriation in the form of maps, reconstructions and pictures. While the inspiration provided in the previous document was from all over Europe, the updated inspiration has been carefully selected from Mediterranean sources more fitting to Oldtown.

What part of the Mediterranean are you taking inspiration from? The French Riviera, Almafi Coast, Adriatic Sea, Malta, Croatia, Costa Brava, Andalucía, Sicily, Turkey, Greece, Southern France?

 

[EStoop]

What part of the Mediterranean are you taking inspiration from? The French Riviera, Almafi Coast, Adriatic Sea, Malta, Croatia, Costa Brava, Andalucía, Sicily, Turkey, Greece, Southern France?

An excerpt from the updated Oldtown document
"The inspiration for the city of Oldtown and its environs is primarily based on Constantinople, and (a medieval interpretation of) Roman, Byzantine and Romanesque architecture in general. Other important inspiration has been found along the Mediterranean coast, such as southern France, Sicily and the Balkan peninsula, for both architecture and economy.

However, we used inspiration from all over southern Europe for some aspects regarding economy and society, such as Florence and Rome.

Most inspirational pictures gathered for this project are of buildings in early- and middle medieval styles. Buildings in a renaissance style are deliberately avoided, since we want Oldtown to be an old city with old buildings.

As is to be expected, most inspiration available to us is of current situations. This means that in the case of architecture, the original medieval building might have been subject to changes later in its lifetime, which have a high probability to not be medieval in nature. As a result, it’s likely that an inspirational picture has certain aspects which are undesired in Oldtown. Despite this, the inspiration provided in this document has been carefully selected to portray the goals for this project as accurately as possible."

I hope this answers all your questions.

 

[Sharp]

I’ve read big amount of this thread, and I would like to propose an idea (maybe this isn’t the right time to do so but anyway).

An excerpt from the updated Oldtown document
"The inspiration for the city of Oldtown and its environs is primarily based on Constantinople, and (a medieval interpretation of) Roman, Byzantine and Romanesque architecture in general. Other important inspiration has been found along the Mediterranean coast, such as southern France, Sicily and the Balkan peninsula, for both architecture and economy.

However, we used inspiration from all over southern Europe for some aspects regarding economy and society, such as Florence and Rome.

Most inspirational pictures gathered for this project are of buildings in early- and middle medieval styles. Buildings in a renaissance style are deliberately avoided, since we want Oldtown to be an old city with old buildings.

As is to be expected, most inspiration available to us is of current situations. This means that in the case of architecture, the original medieval building might have been subject to changes later in its lifetime, which have a high probability to not be medieval in nature. As a result, it’s likely that an inspirational picture has certain aspects which are undesired in Oldtown. Despite this, the inspiration provided in this document has been carefully selected to portray the goals for this project as accurately as possible."

I hope this answers all your questions.

I was thinking if would be interesting to put another style in the city, to represent its old unknown past. I though about ancient roman with a grain of assyrian archtecture (Seems reasonable to me because of the sphinx). This style would be used in a so distant past that there would be just underground ruined examples. I read about the quarries and the catacombs, so maybe I’m just tripping.

 

[AerioOndos]

The sphinxes seem to be connected to Valyrian mythos and might be like the four tetrarchs in St Marks Square, taken to Oldtown after an expedition, maybe during the century of blood. Or they might have been commissioned by a hightower king in the ancient past who was interested in the arts practiced by the Valyrians. Its a really cool idea for Oldtown, including assyrian stuff but what would that leave for Essos

 

[ContraBlonde]

An excerpt from the updated Oldtown document
"The inspiration for the city of Oldtown and its environs is primarily based on Constantinople, and (a medieval interpretation of) Roman, Byzantine and Romanesque architecture in general. Other important inspiration has been found along the Mediterranean coast, such as southern France, Sicily and the Balkan peninsula, for both architecture and economy.

However, we used inspiration from all over southern Europe for some aspects regarding economy and society, such as Florence and Rome.

Most inspirational pictures gathered for this project are of buildings in early- and middle medieval styles. Buildings in a renaissance style are deliberately avoided, since we want Oldtown to be an old city with old buildings.

As is to be expected, most inspiration available to us is of current situations. This means that in the case of architecture, the original medieval building might have been subject to changes later in its lifetime, which have a high probability to not be medieval in nature. As a result, it’s likely that an inspirational picture has certain aspects which are undesired in Oldtown. Despite this, the inspiration provided in this document has been carefully selected to portray the goals for this project as accurately as possible."

I hope this answers all your questions.

Would this vision take inspiration from how King’s Landing is portrayed in the show (season 2) as it was filmed in Croatia?

If so, I think that using a palette with the Lannisport/Casterly Rock roof shingles with the reach stone of Highgarden would be a good palette

 

[Sharp]

The sphinxes seem to be connected to Valyrian mythos and might be like the four tetrarchs in St Marks Square, taken to Oldtown after an expedition, maybe during the century of blood. Or they might have been commissioned by a hightower king in the ancient past who was interested in the arts practiced by the Valyrians. Its a really cool idea for Oldtown, including assyrian stuff but what would that leave for Essos

I see. I thought that for trading with the free cities for so long (and possibly with Valyria and the Summer Isles), there could be a small drop of essos here and there.

 

[AerioOndos]

I agree, but it might only be drops in a very large pond, especially as what is being done on bloodstone by birdman would seem less unique if there were similar buildings in Oldtown

 

[Enah]

I mean, the drops are that there's lord of light temple in OT

 

[Sharp]

The sphinxes seem to be connected to Valyrian mythos and might be like the four tetrarchs in St Marks Square, taken to Oldtown after an expedition, maybe during the century of blood. Or they might have been commissioned by a hightower king in the ancient past who was interested in the arts practiced by the Valyrians. Its a really cool idea for Oldtown, including assyrian stuff but what would that leave for Essos

You’re right. I was thinking specifically in underground ruined structures, like cisterns and ancient chambers ( if any of these are going to be done).

 

[AerioOndos]

You’re right. I was thinking specifically in underground ruined structures, like cisterns and ancient chambers ( if any of these are going to be done).

I think it’s already been mentioned that there are going to be in use cisterns and many other underground structures besides

 

[Sharp]

I think it’s already been mentioned that there are going to be in use cisterns and many other underground structures besides

Yes but I mean in the ancient style that I mentioned. Something like this:

Ot underground idea - Album on Imgur

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users like SharpB.

imgur.com

(try to picture this structures as dark as you can)
They could have been used in many ways through oldtown history. Maybe they are too big and end up being too imaginative and uncanon (Or just a very boujee necropolis). Anyway, this came to my mind and I wanted to share, is up to you guys if this is relevant or not.

 

[Iwan]

Interesting idea, underground structures reflecting ancient architectures, a Mucholdertown right under Oldtown. Will see if/how we can incorporate this.

 

[jmcmarq]

I did a test for the tunnels gradient!
Make your opinion, comming soon, ill do a 1:1 model of the tunnels section to explain the ideas i got.

the difference in gradient was done to differ the original ancient vaults (yellow pallete) from the new addons (reach gradient)



Thanks