Completed Highgarden

[CashBanks]

Hah I've actually been discussing some ideas for finishing off the Mander with the Highgarden team this week and put together a rough plan, while we all miss @Elduwin dearly, we can try and do our best in his absence.

I've tried to take cues from @Thamus_Knoward's magnum opus on Fluvial Processes to inform what the river banks could look like, ranging between thick shrubbery/weeds all the way to the waters edge, more muddy banks through to sand.


Click here for bigger version with more detail

The general plan is to make it mostly a shrubby mix and mud banks towards the eastern/north eastern upper reaches, and it progressively gets a little more sandy as it gets to Woodwright (I'll hold off on the Ball/Mander delta end, that's a huge job in and of itself) On the map above, if I haven't added a line of yellow/brown to the river bank then by default it will be the leafy shrub/grass mix, taking cues from the lands it passes.

I get the impression sand banks commonly form on river bends. So my rough idea was to add them on the inner corner of river bends like in example a. below, and then using a more muddy mix as a transition zone. Sand -> Mud -> Shrubbery ->Mud ->Sand etc. I otherwise plan to use the terra plotting Eld's already started.

This could be a nice chance for some interesting immersion builds if anyone's inspired.

Tests of the various river bank styles



Fyi that's a fallen tree "snag" in the pic above.







Canon quotes for reference:
Described as a "mighty river"
The Mander itself ... is the longest and broadest river in the Seven Kingdoms.
"It was a lazy river, wide and slow and treacherous with snags and sandbars. Most seagoing vessels dared not sail beyond Highgarden, but longships with their shallow draughts could navigate as far upstream as Bitterbridge."

Anyway I'm happy to make a start on the grunt work and focus particular attention to the key areas around completed projects - feedback is welcome and assistance encouraged.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

You have my blessing on the Holy Hall section, just be mindful of any man made structures and let me know of any issues

 

[Enah]

the yellow is like grassy and the brown trees, so you know, look at his isles and shores near hgtown that were done. i'm not fond of too much sand in my river views

 

[CashBanks]

the yellow is like grassy and the brown trees, so you know, look at his isles and shores near hgtown that were done. i'm not fond of too much sand in my river views

Ohh I was thinking that was a lot of sand! That makes life a lot easier.

 

[Elduwin]

Heyooo! Sorry for not having given any news for so long.
So, I'd be happy to discuss the Mander with you (probably in game would be better to make some tests).
Sadly, and to be honest and transparent with you guys, I won't have the availability any time soon to help doing the terra...

Concerning the colors, it was a quick plotting, but the idea is to have forested shores, and not too blank. Brown is "forest" as in, trees that can grow in wet soils (like willows and poplars), but the ground is mostly muddy/grassy, and yellow is definitely sandy (can be mixed with mud/sludge shores). Will make an album with some inspirations asap.
Happy to see @CashBanks take up the torch! Thanks!

 

[CashBanks]

Great to have you back Eld!
As an update on the Mander progress, the rough contouring of the river bed has been finished along the river length highlighted below.


We're now at a point where we just need to decide on the main dirt/sand/gravel/mud/pebble mix for the river bed.

This was Eld's original mix,


But we've now got some more options with Muddy Sand so it's worth exploring options that are less green and more of an even mix between sand/mud/pebbles.

I'm not a geologist so I'm just totally guessing and going off what I can find on google. This article might be a helpful guide,
Classifying Rivers - Three Stages of River Development

Endy's suggested this gradient of Eastern Islands/Reach Pebbles mixing into sand then muddy sand then mud/gravel. This could be good down river where it could be more sandy.




I was thinking an opposite mix could work as well for further up the river, where it's mud at the bottom gradually transitioning to sand/pebbles


Then lastly we could have sections where it's mostly just mud/gravel/muddy sand for the more shrubby/tree lined areas.


Keen to get people's thoughts/gut reactions.

 

[AerioOndos]

I like what you’ve proposed

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

Great to have you back Eld!
As an update on the Mander progress, the rough contouring of the river bed has been finished along the river length highlighted below.
View attachment 2078

We're now at a point where we just need to decide on the main dirt/sand/gravel/mud/pebble mix for the river bed.

This was Eld's original mix,
View attachment 2079

But we've now got some more options with Muddy Sand so it's worth exploring options that are less green and more of an even mix between sand/mud/pebbles.

I'm not a geologist so I'm just totally guessing and going off what I can find on google. This article might be a helpful guide,
Classifying Rivers - Three Stages of River Development

Endy's suggested this gradient of Eastern Islands/Reach Pebbles mixing into sand then muddy sand then mud/gravel. This could be good down river where it could be more sandy.
View attachment 2080



I was thinking an opposite mix could work as well for further up the river, where it's mud at the bottom gradually transitioning to sand/pebbles
View attachment 2081

Then lastly we could have sections where it's mostly just mud/gravel/muddy sand for the more shrubby/tree lined areas.
View attachment 2082

Keen to get people's thoughts/gut reactions.

Personally Im a bigger fan of the mud on the sides and the sand in the middle

 

[AerioOndos]

oh yeah, that makes sense. The sediment should be at the bottom, meaning there wouldn't be any pebbles. even then they would be covered in sand closer to the mouth.

 

[CashBanks]

I don't mind, Ark/Enah/Marg/Eld and others with projects along the Mander rivers can make the call

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

I want mud sides and sandy/reachgravel middle like endy made

 

[Enah]

The market stalls on the green south of Highgarden's gate is open to build, please do not go crazy

 

[Elduwin]

Hey!
So, I've discussed with @CashBanks in game, here's a file with several photos of insp from the Loire

Loire - Google Drive

drive.google.com

Several recommandations I would give concerning the Mander terra:
- have sandy banks, with bits of gravels/pebbles here and there: I would highly recommend sand instead of mud, because it's much closer to the descriptions of "a lazy river, wide and slow and treacherous with snags and sandbars". I really like the last test screenshot Cash posted on January 28th.
- have lots of vegetation on the banks, wherever there is no construction: the river would flood quite often, change its shape, and the peasants would use the shores for fields or anything else. On the contrary, trees solidifies the shores and protects from flooding, so the people would leave them. I would also ask for other shapes of trees, some bending over the river, in the spirit of the weeping willows but with other species.
I recommend using poplars, a lot, especially in lands close to builded areas, before and after villages/towns, because poplars are used to dry marshes and wet areas. Having areas with poplars around towns create flooding areas that will prevent the town to be flooded.
- the bottom can be muddy, to represent silt/sludge that accumulates at the bottom of the river
- the river would be quite flat, and the bottom not too deep, it may need to be reshaped accordingly

I trust @CashBanks to do great work with the Mander! Will try to come from time to time and help if I can

 

[CashBanks]

Doing some further refinements to the river bed mix, it makes sense to me that the Mander north of Ball would be heavy with mud and sediment. That article I linked above described the slow movement of old, wide rivers like the Mississippi and their suspended sediment "make it appear, in some locations, more like a river of mud than a river of water."



I think it's a moot point to an extent since it's going to be obscured by the water.

My concern with the lighter sand/pebble gradient mix you can see to the top right of that gif is that it looks too light/clean for the bottom of a wide/slow moving muddy river. I know Marg and others like it though so I'm prepared to go with it if I'm totally off the mark with thinking the bottom should be dark and muddy.

For sand banks/islets I was thinking of going with a muddy sand/sand/pebble mix like this:



Then for the more muddy/leafier banks using mostly mud/muddy sand

 

[EStoop]

As Elduwin mentioned silt would form on the bottom of slow moving rivers, which would be best represented by mud on our server. The banks of the rivers should be sand, as can be seen at the rivers Meusse, Rhine, Rhone, Loire and Oder. Afaik mud doesn't form quickly with the fine sand commonly found along rivers, unless at a ford or something along those lines. Making the riverbanks muddy similar to the last picture of the post above would be unrealistic, and would only fit if the flora would extend to the water edge.

I suggest using trees such as cottonwood and willow (those love wet soil), alder, oak and aspen (those like wet soil). Don't use beech, since those hate wet soil.

I'd like to point out the river is currently rather deep, maybe we could make it two blocks less deep and make the banks more gradual/less steep?

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

The lore also indicates that the Mander is only muddy and rough in the upper reaches and that it becomes clear and calm by Highgarden

 

[AerioOndos]

Except if it becomes clear that means it must have passed through a filter or the sediment has settled for it to have been muddy upstream and clear downstream, right?

 

[CashBanks]

Ok I'll add a higher mix of sand along the top of the banks, I think the muddy sand block is worth using where possible though.

clear and calm by Highgarden

The only source I can find for that "clear and calm" descriptor is from the the Game of Thrones RPG and Resource Book, which probably isn't our best source of canon. I get your intention though, you don't want it to be a gross muddy mess, which I'll be aiming to avoid.

 

[Elduwin]

As Elduwin mentioned silt would form on the bottom of slow moving rivers, which would be best represented by mud on our server. The banks of the rivers should be sand, as can be seen at the rivers Meusse, Rhine, Rhone, Loire and Oder. Afaik mud doesn't form quickly with the fine sand commonly found along rivers, unless at a ford or something along those lines. Making the riverbanks muddy similar to the last picture of the post above would be unrealistic, and would only fit if the flora would extend to the water edge.

I suggest using trees such as cottonwood and willow (those love wet soil), alder, oak and aspen (those like wet soil). Don't use beech, since those hate wet soil.

I'd like to point out the river is currently rather deep, maybe we could make it two blocks less deep and make the banks more gradual/less steep?

Fully aligned with all this!

Concerning the muddy sand block, i think the use of dirt/gravel in the middle of the islets make the whole thing too far away from sandbars, and to that screenshot you posted on January, 28th. It can be used for the parts with more vegetation, but I'd rather stick to mostly sand otherwise, and even have some pebbles to give volume.

 

[Elduwin]

Also, maybe it could be interesting to play with the sandy grass block, for the large islets with vegetation.
Also, on the depth and the shapes of the shores and islets and sandbars, it was done long ago, so feel free to modify it in any way if necessary. Some islets may need to be reshaped.