Completed Project Application: Stoney Sept

[Margaery_Tyrell]

Or die

 

[AerioOndos]

of course

 

[Howy]

Please help

Many sprawl plots open at /warp ss, on all sides of the town! Have a look at /warp sseast for some spicy sprawl plots too.

 

[Howy]

Stoney Sept is DONE!


A HUGE thanks to all those involved. There's some famous and less famous names, but it's thanks to each and every one of them that the biggest town in the Riverlands was finished.

Now just waiting on post-approval by my beloved mods Cash and Ark, whom I pestered endlessly to approve as the project was ongoing, so hopefully the job will be a bit easier!

I loved working on SS, and again thank you to everyone who helped out. It was a titan of a task, and I couldn't have done it without our dedicated WesterosCraft team.

xo xo

Ol' Howy​

 

[EStoop]

I thought Cash was part of the team leading the town, since he has been involved with house approvals, plotting and what not. I don't think someone who has had a leading role in a project should be the one to judge its quality.

 

[Howy]

Honestly, I do find it fairly low of you to doubt Cash's ability to be objective because of his involvement. I will, however, put this doubt to a lack of understanding and inside knowledge on your part, and clarify for that sake.

Re house approvals: Cash 'approved' houses along the way because he is an approving mod. Ark also approved houses along the way, because he is an approving mod. This saves them both the immense effort of approving everything later on at once - it can be done in portions. I always personally approved houses prior to Cash and Ark checking them. This is a dynamic approach to the post-approval process necesarry for a project of this scale in terms of houses.

Re plotting: I am the only one who plotted the physical location of houses, in any area of the project besides its minis (which were plotted by builders and not Cash). Cash only added professions at my request, as did other builders, since at times I ran out of the creativity and willpower to do it. This was only occassional, and only for small areas of sprawl. In his contributions there, most plots were just 'farmers' with backstories developed by him. I was and still am very grateful, as it was during a busy period in my life and eased a lot of the stress for me.

Re 'whatnot': I can't say for certain what this is besides 'etc', which isn't specific. However if it is refering to Cash posting about new plots being open, see my text above regarding plotting - I wasn't able to post at the time, and he did so for me. If it's refering to Cash making the quarry for me; I'm sure Ark can post approve that portion.


Now having addressed that, let me address the suggestion you’ve made. I find it frankly rude and a little ill-considered to judge a mod's ability to be objective. However, I will forgive it, given that you may not be aware of the context and level of Cash's involvement until now (having read my above reply). Hopefully it brings some clarity to your conception of what occured/is occurring.

Mods participate all the time in projects. Some they're post approving mods of, some they aren't. Where I do believe it is inappropriate is when the project lead post-approves their own project (e.g. like if I post-approved SS as a mod). But this was not the case for Cash or for Ark. Both had a good deal of involvement, but it was doing what mods are here to do - help out.

 

[Enah]

I was also under the full impression that Cash had replotted a good bit of the south side of town. And you should know very well mods are people and can be a little biased or subjective so don't try to make it seem like the Maester Rank is infallible.

Also, Emily Post once wrote on the subject of being more rude by pointing out another's rudeness, though not sure if that book was ever published in Australian Polite Society.

 

[Howy]

I was also under the full impression that Cash had replotted a good bit of the south side of town. And you should know very well mods are people and can be a little biased or subjective so don't try to make it seem like the Maester Rank is infallible.

Also, Emily Post once wrote on the subject of being more rude by pointing out another's rudeness, though not sure if that book was ever published in Australian Polite Society.

You were/are wrong on multiple accounts.

 

[EStoop]

Now having addressed that, let me address the suggestion you’ve made. I find it frankly rude and a little ill-considered to judge a mod's ability to be objective. However, I will forgive it, given that you may not be aware of the context and level of Cash's involvement until now (having read my above reply). Hopefully it brings some clarity to your conception of what occured/is occurring.

Thank the Old Gods and the New you have forgiven my insulence, almighty moderator ... Mate, take a couple of steps down from your high horse. You make it sound as if you and other moderators should be free of scrutiny. "I will forgive it", seriously? You're kidding right? Is this a threat? Will the next time I dare to disagree with you have repercussions?

There is nothing rude in pointing out someone who has been more closely involved in a project than usual is about to judge the quality of the content he himself created, as you yourself in your everlasting wisdom admit would be inappropriate.

Mods participate all the time in projects. Some they're post approving mods of, some they aren't. Where I do believe it is inappropriate is when the project lead post-approves their own project (e.g. like if I post-approved SS as a mod). But this was not the case for Cash or for Ark. Both had a good deal of involvement, but it was doing what mods are here to do - help out.

 

[Howy]

Thank the Old Gods and the New you have forgiven my insulence, almighty moderator ... Mate, take a couple of steps down from your high horse. You make it sound as if you and other moderators should be free of scrutiny. "I will forgive it", seriously? You're kidding right? Is this a threat? Will the next time I dare to disagree with you have repercussions?

There is nothing rude in pointing out someone who has been more closely involved in a project than usual is about to judge the quality of the content he himself created, as you yourself in your everlasting wisdom admit would be inappropriate.

Don't get your knickers in a twist. I'll reword what I said: it's rude and ill-considered to judge anbody's ability to be objective. I don't believe it exclusive to judging mods. I still believe you were being rude.

I'm not here for a fight. I'm here to have fun, and I think it can be disrespectful to put anyone's potential objectivity into doubt. There are times said doubt is obvious and necesarry - re-iterating my earlier example, I am the project lead. I very obviously have a conflict of interest in approving this project. No mod has ever approved their own project (except maybe as the odd cheeky meme). Cash is not the lead for this project, neither is Ark. They are both objective, and able to put aside their own interest to approve the project in a non-partisan manner. To suggest otherwise would imply that were I to build a house or two at a project that I could not post-approve it. This is not only silly, it's unrealistic. Cash helped out, and I thank him for it. But his help was not to such an extent that it warrants questioning his ability to be objective. This question has not, in my memory, come up before.

As such, my response above was in reaction to what I have perceived as constant bickering and nitpicking of this project by certain (consistently the same) parties. These same parties now put a foot in the door without much justification, so my first instinct was the parties were trying to slow the project for no other reason than to continue nitpicking. My so-called high horse upon which I sit mine mighty buttox was not actually a high horse, but me trying to present that I was genuinely giving you the benefit of the doubt - as, on all appearances, you seem to have a dislike for the project. These thoughts have not been unique to me, and have been shared by others on the server and in private chats.

 

[EStoop]

I am the project lead. I very obviously have a conflict of interest in approving this project. No mod has ever approved their own project (except maybe as the odd cheeky meme). Cash is not the lead for this project, neither is Ark.

I never claimed you are not the project lead, nor have I claimed Cash is the project lead. I merely pointed out Cash has had a fairly large role, larger than would be considered regular, in the management of Stony Sept, be it plotting, maintaining builder influx or approving houses. It’s not to me to judge the validity of my claim.

You say it would be inappropriate for a mod to post-approve his or her own project, yet you see no conflict in a mod deciding who can post-approve it for him.

To suggest otherwise would imply that were I to build a house or two at a project that I could not post-approve it.

We are not talking about a house or two, which I’m sure you haven’t failed to comprehend.

This is not only silly, it's unrealistic. Cash helped out, and I thank him for it. But his help was not to such an extent that it warrants questioning his ability to be objective. This question has not, in my memory, come up before.

This question has not come up before because I assumed it was still Enah/Arkilstorm and Wazgamer who were the approving mods of the project. Cash’s involvement in the project actually made me assume he joined the project in the form of an unofficial co-op. Had I known he was actually on the books of being an approving moderator, I would have mentioned it before. However I had no way of knowing, since there has never been a mention of this.

As such, my response above was in reaction to what I have perceived as constant bickering and nitpicking of this project by certain (consistently the same) parties. These same parties now put a foot in the door without much justification, so my first instinct was the parties were trying to slow the project for no other reason than to continue nitpicking. My so-called high horse upon which I sit mine mighty buttox was not actually a high horse, but me trying to present that I was genuinely giving you the benefit of the doubt - as, on all appearances, you seem to have a dislike for the project. These thoughts have not been unique to me, and have been shared by others on the server and in private chats.

I have provided feedback on this project several times since you posted the project app, if that is what you mean by “constant bickering and nitpicking”. I have also advocated against your request to redo Stoney Sept. I still stand by my feedback, as well as the reason I gave against a redo.

Accusing me of trying to stall the project or, as I’ve seen it being stated ingame, derail it is not only childish but also not the kind of behavior I would expect from a moderator. This accusation, however, is sadly not new to me, as you well know, since I confronted you and the parties involved in a private chat back in December 2018, to which you did not reply.

If I actually wanted to slow the project and continue “nitpicking”, I would just copy & paste the long list of consistent feedback I have given throughout this project and dump it into this thread, since I know the majority has remained unaddressed. I could point out the vast open space you left in the area of the quarry and the sept which is noticeable with a quick glance on both the dynmap and ingame, or I could just point out that the Blackwater around Stoney Sept is wider than the rest of the river.

You correctly assume I dislike the project, but that has more to do with the decisions made by those who managed it than it has to do with the project itself. I have tried to contribute to its quality by providing tips and feedback, which you decided to ignore. I firmly believe the project was promising at its start, but that the end product is of a lesser quality than I had expected it to become.

I don’t expect Stoney Sept to change at this point, nor do I think that it should. However, the original intend of my comment regarding Cash’s involvement in the post-approval of this project was pointing out that allowing a member of the community which has had a larger than normal role in the management of a project to judge its quality sets a precedent you might want to reconsider.

it's rude and ill-considered to judge anbody's ability to be objective. I don't believe it exclusive to judging mods.

As such, my response above was in reaction to what I have perceived as constant bickering and nitpicking of this project by certain (consistently the same) parties. These same parties now put a foot in the door without much justification, so my first instinct was the parties were trying to slow the project for no other reason than to continue nitpicking. My so-called high horse upon which I sit mine mighty buttox was not actually a high horse, but me trying to present that I was genuinely giving you the benefit of the doubt - as, on all appearances, you seem to have a dislike for the project. These thoughts have not been unique to me, and have been shared by others on the server and in private chats.

The irony is not lost on me.

 

[Howy]

This argument is going nowhere, and the general conclusion to address your original post is that Cash is the approving mod, and will remain as much. Ark is the other approving mod. Hopefully this clears up any confusion for yourself and other builders.

 

[CashBanks]

From Ark and I:
You're almost at the finish line Howy, this is a massive project and given just how many projects often go unfinished it's a huge effort to get it this far. With any big project some things get overlooked in the rush to completion so we've just made some notes on the last areas for improvement.

1. Sand banks all the way up into the hills should really be just dirt/gravel or a pebble mix, and then transition into sand at the main river - Not sure sand would possibly form in those narrow streams.

It should be straightforward enough to replace the sand with a /br sphere grass,dirt and /mask 2258

2. Please check all the houses - We can’t see any approval blocks on the outer-town houses. We’ve checked them for mistakes, but the build leader should approve them him/herself, particularly since the SS style is looser than others just to check for consistency.

3. More grass/ reeds along the river front - It looks very uniform and a bit unnatural.
Example of something you could try at Bitterbridge




4. A couple of houses have un-addressed feedback melons - I’ve marked them in gold towers of blocks. Please address them. Feedback isn’t tagged so make the executive decision on them.

4. The main roads are just a dirt/gravel mix and really could do with some detailing. The two squares and main road in the town seem to be the only paved areas. This should extend to all main roads in/out of the town, especially those steeper roads, such as the one leading into the town from the west. These roads shouldn’t be as cobbled as the main thoroughfares but definitely be paved enough to avoid being unusable when it rains. The road from the quarry could particularly use some cobble, as the heavy wagons would tear up the dirt, and they'd have plenty of stone to use for it as well.

5. The roads through the sprawl could be roughed up a bit as well, some mud tracks would add some more variation to them, and would be easy enough to add with /gmask 3,13 and plotting out their path with /sel convex then //curve 13,2034


6. Consider the surrounding lands, as far as the ends of the streams, feeding into the main river. There isn’t much at all beside the hanging tree to the west, and the land looks unfinished. I know we agreed to the extent of the lands, but the landscape ends very abruptly, with no foliage along the river banks, no bushes, trees, no signs of civilisation which seems a little alien. Perhaps not full settlements, but I’d expect to find some small amount of woodland, trees, maybe some immersion builds in the form of a hunters camp, a toll station, or watchtower; perhaps open grazing plains for sheep? This shouldn’t require a lot of work, but will bring the SS lands to a nice conclusion.

 

[Howy]

Hey Cash and Ark,

Thanks for the feedback! Please see below for my comments (I've not acted on any yet but will soon!):

1. Yep that should be fine. Shame I didn't really think of that earlier, given the difficulty of snow brushing the smoothness haha.

2. Yep all houses were checked and meloned. I didn't think to add approval blocks unfortunately but I did go through them.

3. All good, I'll try adding some and see how it turns out.

4. Will do.

4. I assume the numbering got mixed up a bit here since there are two '4's! Re the those roads being the only paved areas, that was very purposeful. There was a lot of concern early in the project about Stoney Sept not wanting to appear too 'city-like' and more 'rural' - hence the lack of paving. While I could consider paving more roads within the walls, I am not too sure about paving roads outside of the walls (especially long roads such as that one up to the quarry). If you or Ark could provide an in-game example of cobbled roads outside of town/city walls (on a modern project) I'd be happy to give it a look. The general precedent however has been not cobbling roads outside of walled areas and communes from what I can tell.

5. Yep I can add some mud here and there.

6. The expectation I had was that a warp or two would be placed in the lands allowing them to be filled. I still recommend this as it is a good chunk of land - I'd prefer a warp placed and proper attention be given to the area, rather than the odd spot of a bush or woodland. I'd recommend placing one of the remaining F&B knightly houses or the like in the area. Also wouldn't be too bad if the area was open for an immersion build (again, more about ensuring the effort is put in rather than peppering small additions by me).

I will get onto the above when I can, though the more contested points (the second 4 and 6) may need further consideration first.

 

[EStoop]

6. The expectation I had was that a warp or two would be placed in the lands allowing them to be filled. I still recommend this as it is a good chunk of land - I'd prefer a warp placed and proper attention be given to the area, rather than the odd spot of a bush or woodland. I'd recommend placing one of the remaining F&B knightly houses or the like in the area. Also wouldn't be too bad if the area was open for an immersion build (again, more about ensuring the effort is put in rather than peppering small additions by me).

I will get onto the above when I can, though the more contested points (the second 4 and 6) may need further consideration first.

This is not what was communicated at the start of the project, since this exact point has been discussed the very same day the project was approved. To remind you:

What will happen to the lands east of Treepenny wood? Is it part of Stoney Sept, and if not, who will do that land? Same goes for the lands west and north of Stoney Sept, around Hollow Hill (will that be part of Hollow Hill or would that be just the caves?) and between the riverlands sept and Acorn Hall. The projects around it are all finished, and I don't think leaving it bare is an option.

8. North. I do not think that the area between Acorn Hall and the Sept needs touching particurly. Maybe some fields for septons, but not much more. Patches of land unblemished by human hands give a wider immersion to our world. To consistently have areas (especially beyond the Reach, considered to be more densely agricultural) inhabited by humans would break the medieval immersion. I realise at our scale logically we would fill everything, as things seem smaller than they might be. However in medieval times there was uninterrupted spots of wilderness between settlements.

East. Some of the above reasoning stands, however my original genuine thinking was that it was a part of the Crones Mill project. If I reach that area towards the end of my main set of lands, I may see to editing that area, perhaps incorporating Crones Mill with mod permission. I don't want to make unnecessary land grabs however, only to bog down an already expansive and large project. i.e. Not biting off more than I can chew (which some have suggested is already the case - I disagree, but don't want to push that point).

Hollow Hill. It is only now I am realizing this was wiped. I had assumed it still stood, but its clearly been wiped away in a previous terraform. As far as I am aware Hollow Hill was and continues to be a solo project, and I suggest it is up to the project lead who takes those lands under their wing to incorporate them respectively. Again, I don't want to overreach. Were I to occupy all empty space surrounding Stoney Sept, the town would have lands from Hollow Hill to the God's Eye. As much as I love that idea, the practicality of it is unrealistic. I may propose a 'lands' plan for lands beyond those approved later in the project, but that will itself require further approval and is not necesarry at the present time for the reasons above.

I didn't mean it as a "fill this area with farms and whatnot" but more as a "consider that this area needs to be taken care of". I agree we need tracts of emptyness, but the wilderness still needs to be created; the bare terraform of the map simply isn't enough to make it come alive.

I'll look into it later in the project. I likely will want to expand later anyway if I come across any particularly inspirational pics or ideas, likely opening the areas as subprojects.

 

[Howy]

Re North: Did what I said I'd do - some fields for the septons.

Re East: This area is full of projects; I am not expanding Stoney Sept to encompass further projects.

Re Hollow Hill: This was a possible expansion, but I chose not to pursue it as I imagine if someone builds Hollow Hill they might want more than just a cave to build.

As stated, in the quotes above, I said I'd look into it later. There's a lot of likelys, maybes, ifs and buts - I very purposefully made no promises because I didn't know how 'over' the project I'd be at a later date and left it deliberately ambiguous. I can dot some stuff around the hanging tree area - some bushes and maybe a grove or two, perhaps even a hunting cabin - but not anything more.

Also, circumstances change. We did not have an excess of unplaced warps at the time. I've not even necesarrily changed my opinion on the matter (re lands) - I made it fairly clear I wasn't sure and made no such promise from what I recall. If there has been any change in my opinion, it is that it would be better suited to put a knightly house there. Again, still happy to dot it with some stuff, but I will only be dotting the area around/near the tree.

Plans change Stoop to accommodate the desires of the builder and the server, within reason. This is especially the case with towns as you are more than familiar with. I appreciate the reminder

 

[EStoop]

As stated, in the quotes above, I said I'd look into it later. There's a lot of likelys, maybes, ifs and buts - I very purposefully made no promises because I didn't know how 'over' the project I'd be at a later date and left it deliberately ambiguous. I can dot some stuff around the hanging tree area - some bushes and maybe a grove or two, perhaps even a hunting cabin - but not anything more.

Also, circumstances change. We did not have an excess of unplaced warps at the time. I've not even necesarrily changed my opinion on the matter (re lands) - I made it fairly clear I wasn't sure and made no such promise from what I recall. If there has been any change in my opinion, it is that it would be better suited to put a knightly house there. Again, still happy to dot it with some stuff, but I will only be dotting the area around/near the tree.

Plans change Stoop to accommodate the desires of the builder and the server, within reason. This is especially the case with towns as you are more than familiar with. I appreciate the reminder

I interpreted "I'll look into it later" as something along the lines of "I will make a decision on how this area is going to be handled later" and kind of expected it to be different than "it's someone else's problem" as you stated in earlier discourse. Being intentionally vague is something I noticed, however I did not expect it to mean you simply discard the feedback. I'll keep this in mind.

I'm not sure what you mean with the "plans change" comment within the context of the issue currently discussed, could you elaborate?

 

[EStoop]

There are still some conditions for post-approval that seem to be ignored, which are:

1. Sand banks all the way up into the hills should really be just dirt/gravel or a pebble mix, and then transition into sand at the main river - Not sure sand would possibly form in those narrow streams.

It should be straightforward enough to replace the sand with a /br sphere grass,dirt and /mask 2258

The sand remains unchanged at the time of posting this comment.

3. More grass/ reeds along the river front - It looks very uniform and a bit unnatural.

Example of something you could try at Bitterbridge

There is no reed in sight at the riverfront at the time of posting this comment.

5. The roads through the sprawl could be roughed up a bit as well, some mud tracks would add some more variation to them, and would be easy enough to add with /gmask 3,13 and plotting out their path with /sel convex then //curve 13,2034

Mud is still scarce on the roads around Stoney Sept.

6. Consider the surrounding lands, as far as the ends of the streams, feeding into the main river. There isn’t much at all beside the hanging tree to the west, and the land looks unfinished. I know we agreed to the extent of the lands, but the landscape ends very abruptly, with no foliage along the river banks, no bushes, trees, no signs of civilisation which seems a little alien. Perhaps not full settlements, but I’d expect to find some small amount of woodland, trees, maybe some immersion builds in the form of a hunters camp, a toll station, or watchtower; perhaps open grazing plains for sheep? This shouldn’t require a lot of work, but will bring the SS lands to a nice conclusion.

The areas mentioned have not been addressed at all.

In addition, the wiki article has also not been updated.

 

[Howy]

There are still some conditions for post-approval that seem to be ignored, which are:



The sand remains unchanged at the time of posting this comment.



There is no reed in sight at the riverfront at the time of posting this comment.



Mud is still scarce on the roads around Stoney Sept.



The areas mentioned have not been addressed at all.

In addition, the wiki article has also not been updated.

1. Sand has been changed, that's not for the whole river its further up. Have a look at where the streams are.



I've circled them for your convienience. I'll note they had been changed at the time of your comment and for a solid two months beforehand too.

2. Reeds aren't done.

3. I'd rather not add anymore mud.

4. Being worked on.

5. Wiki article is being worked on though I'm slow due to uni essays taking up most of my writing time haha.

 

[EStoop]

1. Sand has been changed, that's not for the whole river its further up. Have a look at where the streams are.

View attachment 2228

I've circled them for your convienience. I'll note they had been changed at the time of your comment and for a solid two months beforehand too.

2. Reeds aren't done.

3. I'd rather not add anymore mud.

4. Being worked on.

5. Wiki article is being worked on though I'm slow due to uni essays taking up most of my writing time haha.

I was under the impression the narrow sections of the river would be considered streams, not just the few blocks it takes for the river to spawn. Thanks for the circles though.

As for the other points, I'm wondering why the project isn't finished, including the wiki page. You seem to have had enough time to plot and terraform Weeping Town during the past 4 months.