Completed Project Application: Stoney Sept

[Howy]

I will have the river meander, but as originally planned by meandering along the suggested path rather than within it. It will require a lot of flattening but nothing I can't do myself in that regard. It is the river painting I would like guidance with from Eldu, Andy, or any other willing and knowledgeable terraformer.

 

[EStoop]

I'm not sure what the plan is now. What is the flattening for? I don't think the river meandering is a problem on itself, it's just that in this case the river is meandering within the meander of the river in some extreme form of meanderception. Just make it meander a lot less so you'd still have a plausible reason for there to be the peninsula Stoney Sept is build upon, but don't have these micro meanders within these curves. If the river would be straight except for the Stoney Sept meander it'd be super weird.

Meander, meander, meander, meander.

 

[Andy_Jones]

Just make it meander a lot less so you'd still have a plausible reason for there to be the peninsula Stoney Sept is build upon, but don't have these micro meanders within these curves.

This is basically the plan. And don’t worry @Howy there is hardly any terraforming needed to fix that. The whole valley can keep its width, as a larger flood plain is totally realistic.

EDIT: Marked it ingame. It's just and example, there is still some room for changes. However I placed a few things to add in the flood basin and placed signs to explain them.

 

[Wazgamer]

Hey Howy, discussed with banty about taking over as approving mod from him as he seems pretty inactive on this project being pre-occupied with Dreadfort and all. Just wondering if that'd be okay with you....? I won't force myself on you.



UNLESS I HAVE TO

 

[Howy]

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

I won't force myself on you.



UNLESS I HAVE TO

This is problematic as fuck

 

[Wazgamer]

This is problematic as fuck

Just bants bro

 

[EStoop]

I know this must be getting tiresome, but I decided to write yet another massive wall of concerns and feedback.

Layout & terrain
First I’d like to say that the current terrain is the best terrain so far, but I still think there is room for improvement. Mainly because as it currently is, most of the town is still flat with steep inclines on the sides. I’m not an expert on terrain, but I think the hill should be more smooth, giving the town a characteristic feel and look by having winding streets, houses and yards at various heights on the peninsula.

Furthermore, the current layout has room for improvement as well. The roads seem really forced, and I know we told you to apply a grid pattern, but since it’s on a hill you’ll have to combine the grid and following the terrain at the same time (which is hard). The roads at the bridges suddenly take an entirely different direction as soon they are in the town, and all the roads appear to be rather large, whereas I think having some narrow alleys would make the town a lot more interesting.

I think there are still too many houses jammed into the town, which will make it feel really uncomfortably cramped.

I’d place the main square more to the south, since that is where the historical centre of the town would be. I’d also rotate it 90 degrees so it makes more sense with the terrain.

Class & special buildings
I’m still a bit concerned about the style. At the moment, more than half of the town will be middle class, and I think this is way too much. Consider replacing about half of the middle class with low class.

You already have a couple of special buildings in the town, more on those later, but I think there is enough room to have some more. Consider placing one or two more septs in the town, maybe a septry, orphanage or hospital. Is there a market hall, enough inns, washing areas and warehouses? Where are the stables?

Sept
The sept feels really small on the inside, smaller than you would expect. I also really dislike the structure attached to it, which I believe is the Warrior Sons building? In any case, I think such a building is wildly unpractical for a military organisation based primarily on nobility. I’d figure that such a headquarters would be more similar to a monastery or military post, rather than a wing attached to the main sept of a town. Possible inspiration being the Templar headquarters in Paris, the commandery in Worcester or the Convent of Christ in Tomar.

I think the Stoney Sept could use some supporting buildings for septa’s, septons and silent sisters.

Holdfast
The holdfast has known a number of variations by now, and I have to bluntly state that the current building is the worst one I’ve seen, with the road going under it and all. The holdfast is probably older than most of the town is. Arya describes it as stout but small for the size of the town, and the current one is barely recognisable as a holdfast.

Guildhouse (I think?)
There is a massive building in the west side of the town that I think is a guildhouse. First of all, why does the town have a guildhouse? Secondly, why is it enormous?

Docks
There are a couple of huge cranes at the docks and I’m not sure why. Boats on the river will be rather small. I also wouldn’t go all out on the river docks but keep them rather small, and focus more on land trade.

Walls & gates
The town has a lot of gates and walls that I don’t know the reason for, such as the gates and walls between houses on the riverside (which I believe would remain undefended in order to not hyperfortify the town), a secondary wall on the northeast side of the town with questionable functionality, and a heavily fortified location on the south side of town.

The walls on the north side seem to ignore the terrain, making sidden 90 degree corners and very straight and long walls. I think a wall that smoothly follows the terrain would look much better.

I don’t know what’s up with the northern gatehouse, but it’s not working well. Either have a towergate or not, but cluttering some buildings on the side and front doesn’t do it any favours.

 

[Enah]

It’s funny I had originally built the Parisian Templar Keep for ss but it didn’t fit stylewise

 

[Howy]

Layout and Terrain

• The town has been purposely put on a steep cliffside hill, rather than a largely smooth one. This is done in emulation of the inspiration of Bern, referencing the Merian map. The intent is that a large chunk of hills will be bare or with some trees, houses only being built where not too steep. This has meant that, unfortunately, some houses have little access to yard space, but a number will be farmers or workers for some of the more urban-based professions near the square.
• The roads are designed in such a way that they would've have developed as as traders crossed what might've been low fords, then wooden bridges, then the current stone bridges. The roads are remains of the original more rural structure, and were cobbled later in the town's history (note this is headcanon not actual canon). I disagree that the grid needs to continue on the steeper aspects of the hill. Its been built to the best of the ability one could muster on the terrain, and any windy roads ('natural' roads) are either reminiscent of the original roads (we see this with older towns/cities) or are formed by foot (i.e. traversed by townsfolk and not cobbled, just dirt/gravel and houses have built up around the roads).
• Regarding too many houses, I've started trying to spread them out on the peninsula with large areas which may be yards or purely stretches of nature where too steep. I will however remove some of the houses on the steeper cliff inclines, as in some of the manual terraforming I've noticed some houses will have 5+ blocks of drop beneath them to actual ground.
• Thew main square is again influenced by the Merian Bern map, which with very similar terrain also has the square stretch west-to-east. The original trade route would have cut across the river (where the bridges are) gone up the smoother/traversable sides of the hill and then met at the middle. The square is balanced between the two main roads as due to the hill forcing a northborne curvature the roads would have met at a diagonal.

Class and Special Buildings

• The middle class in SS isn't the crazy tall, somewhat lavish houses we see at Fairmarket. SS won't be a dense/bigger FM, it will be a shittier, poorer area with varying house heights. Plotting isn't complete (as in details have yet to be added to wool plots), but if you were to go off the house tests I think you'd find that the town will not be as dense/urban as we have seen with other, smaller towns. The only exception to this will be the town square. I know my previous project Bitterbridge had dense, tall middle class houses - but that was the Reach. The Riverlands is desperately shitty, and SS will reflect this. To replace the middle class with low class would be appropriate only if the standards were the same as FM.
• Again, and I can't emphasise this enough since the last post, the plotting isn't done. Literally all thats been put down are blocks of colored wool and a little area which was testing signs/profession composition. I'd ask feedback regarding the actual content of the town wait until at least signs have been put down. My process is different to yours and others, and normally involves me changing plots entirely as I label them (including adding special buildings).

Sept

• The small inside of the sept is very, very purposeful. There was a large amount of (mostly in-game) debate regarding the sept versus the canon of the Highgarden sept. According to WOIAF the HG sept is only rivalled in grandeur or something by Starry and Baelors. The compromise reached was a large scale was appropriate but that the insides needed to be dense and not grand. This frustrated me a lot but was a compromise which I don't want to move away from, otherwise it'll open a can of worms I'd thought closed.
• The structure adjacent to the sept is the septry. Maybe the Warrior's Sons resided there once, in unison with the resident septons and septas of the Faith at the time. I'd like to think they did. But the current function of the building and its original function as well was as the supporting buildings for septons, septas and silent sisters you've suggested. Hopefully this hits two birds with one stone.
• I am still considering changing that adjacent section entirely. Theres elements I like such as some of the towers, but it currently does feel large to me. I'll address it once I've plotted all houses, so I have an idea of how much it dominates the skyline (which I'd rather leave to the sept proper).

Holdfast

• Besides the new arch beneath it, the holdfast currently sitting over the road is literally what was applied with. The only variation I can think of that you're suggesting is location? The reason I added the arch was so that it could sit at the bottom of the sept from a POV looking down the road towards the sept itself. Otherwise, the grid pattern would need be further broken by cutting off the sept from the main road by filling the arch.
• Honestly tho, I do dislike the design myself now. I disagree theres been any variation besides location since it is the original holdfast applied with. However, I suspect it might be best I just make it a subproject of the application. I originally applied with it (and didn't mind it then) because you and others wanted a holdfast test in the application itself, whereas I would have been happy to leave it open for application.

Guildhouse

• The guildhouse is shared as a town hall with the Merchant's Guild of the town. The close link between them and members of the town hall could (in headcanon) no doubt be traced to the Guild paying off a town hall in return for favours or the like. I suspect it will look less large when houses pop up around it, but again it is the town hall as well as the guild hall. No doubt it also caters to other functions such as an auctioneers hall, etc. So far its had only praise, especially in comparison with previous renditions. I personally don't think of it as too big, and again emphasise it will likely lose its seemingly large scale as the town builds up (this often occurs with buildings that exist prior to any houses being built - they stick out like a sore thumb, and its just an inevitability of the visuals).

Docks

• The loads would be heavy enough to warrant cranes - logs, etc. We aren't all Kratos.
• I imagine a lot of the river trade at SS would less be imports and more exports. The docks won't be growing any larger than they currently are, and unlike BB there isn't a small surrounding town dedicated to them. Dockworkers will live in the nearby houses, but besides that there won't be any great emphasis on the river trade.

Walls and Gates

• The walls between the houses and the riverside was to demonstrate the towns growth over the peninsula. Its only a small remaining wall, likely unmanned and I intend to ruin it to some extent to show its age as an older wall.
• The secondary wall on the northeast side will become more clear as sprawl plotting occurs. It may be removed at later date if I revise my plans for that area.
• Again these walls are based off the Merian Bern map. The walls do follow the terrain - rather than a steep and sudden descent, theres are crooks and bends to avoid sudden extremes in drops. This is something I am keen on keeping as its received a lot of praise too. I disagree that a wall following the terrain purely would look better - instead, I think it would look worse, but thats a matter of opinion.
• I can't find the original inspiration for the towerhouse, but it was an actual building. This is another thing I disagree with you on a subjective basis - I think it looks good, others do, others don't, etc. I'll keep it for now, but may remove the adjacent 'turrets' (the little open-air bits).

No worries regarding large walls of feedback. If anything they can be better as it avoids a comment/e-mail style exchange where we're going back and forth on issues and then suddenly new ones are popping up. My one bit of friendly advice (a request really) is that before providing feedback you ask ore at least make attempts to enquire as to what buildings are onsite. That way we can avoid mixups such as the Septry being the Warrior's Sons building and assuming there was no areas for septon/septa/silent sister functions. I'm on a lot in-game, and pretty easy to message - I won't bite haha.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

Just bants bro

reported

 

[Wazgamer]

reported

Don’t do this to me mum

 

[EStoop]

So now Stoney Sept has officially started, there's a few things I noticed that i'd like to point out.

Style
I notice a lot of the houses use different stylistic traits. Now, I haven't seen the styleguide (does it even exist?) but I have a hard time believing everything I'm seeing is within the chosen and approved style. Things like various window designs, such as the outdated fence windows, open windows, stone arrow slit windows in daub walls etc., sometimes even within the same building, seem to be scattered all over the town.

The houses also seem to get bigger and bigger. I think the aim for a town like Stoney Sept should be 1-2 storeys high, in order to make it seem like a thriving town rather than a city that is too small for it's defences.

I trust these stylistic issues will be adressed at some point, but I highly advice you to adress them before opening more of the town.

Professions
The professions at Stoney Sept seem to be allocated randomly, with some even in a manner that shouldn't even be possible realistically. Industry related professions, such as blacksmiths, bellmakers, cartmakers etc. need a lot more space than currently given and were in some specific cases located outside or at the outskirts of a town due to smell or noise. Commerce focussed professions are usually located on the busier streets of a town, while the backstreets may have some professions but generally are just homes for people working somewhere else in the town.

I've seen various instances where professions are inappropriately placed, such as a smith (which makes a lot of noise) next to a locksmith (which needs to concentrate on some very complicated and small mechanisms).

Layout
While the layout of the town has improved a lot since the start of the project, there are still a few characteristics that I think have some room for improvement. Various things I've seen are:

• A road over an island to the south of the currently build part of the town, with multiple houses build over it, two bridges to connect it to the mainland, for no apparant reason. Why doesn't the road stick to the mainland?
• Some roads on the sides of the hill are super steep, why don't they follow a more travel-friendly path like every other road on the server?
• It still seems that there is a massive middle class compared to the low class residents of the town, while logically it would be the other way around. I also advice to only have middle class at the main roads of the town rather than having several blocks of middle class extending as far as up to the wall.
• I still think the plateau-likeness of the hill is a missed opportunity to make an interesting town situated on a hill. Now it seems like half a town on a mountainside, with the other half of the town having no indication of the hilly environment it stands in.

Other stuff
Some other stuff I found myself wondering:

• Where is the holdfast?
• Why is the town square symmetrical, with multiple fountains?
• Why are probies prohibited from building at Stoney Sept? As one of the few projects where urban houses can be build it's a great location to learn for probies.

 

[Howy]

Style:

Houses are going to go through a 'sweep' style approval process, whereas notable errors, issues, and wrongs are meloned and builders recalled to fix said errors. This is a new form of approval process I am trying out, wherein builders are given a 'free for all' style wherein only a select few 'display' houses provide a style guide. The style guide then evolve from there. The 'display houses' used were the approved houses.

The reason the houses are getting 'bigger and bigger' is because thats literally how I envisioned it when I started as things go to the center. You will note that there is 'high urban', 'mid urban', and 'low urban' sections. These areas indicate the relative density and house 'size'. Low urban will be dominant, with mid urban next and then for the two blocks just south of the main square will be the 'high urban'. This is the densest part of town where space is scarce due to the expansion outwards from that epicenter. I think people are expressing concerns too early, and making presumptions about the direction of the town from herein. The town will remain respectively a town, it is the densest area so far that has been built already. I don't think house height will be an issue, considering the height of houses in other Riverlander towns...

Professions:

While I do agree that the placement of some plots was poorly decided (such as a tanner, which has been resolved), I think its folly to pay such extreme attention to the detail such as where noise might be loud from a neighbor. I disagree strongly with pursuing such a direction, and ask the server maybe slow down a little in its regime-like attention to detail. I am proud of our attention to detail, but sometimes we can go a little overboard. This sentiment is shared by others, but that's not for discussion in this thread.

Layout:

- That road will not be the main road to that section. Its more of a back alley - the main road cutting off where it begins to slope up the hill towards the sept. Also, being honest, its scenic and adds to the project. Personally I adore the little bridge, and I think its fine as back road despite not being as functional as it could be.

- I wanted a grid, you wanted a grid, we all wanted a grid. And I particularly enjoyed the idea of peasants trampling their way up steep hills like the bourgeois boy I am. The roads have been agreed to a reasonable steepness, such that carts might struggle to get up them but there are other paths available for said carts.

- I will be implementing more low class houses in low urban sections. However, I have to emphasise again that the class of houses is not indicative of their wealth but rather the design and shape of houses. Low class houses are all little pudgy things such as those built just south of the docks, along the lines of what might be found in the outer sprawl of KL. Too many of those and it'll look less like a town and more like a glorified farmstead.

- I am not building a town on a complete hill. Its been a nightmare as is working it around the current hill, which was already itself a response to feedback to make the terrain more natural with its surroundings. Its reached the most natural it can be before things start getting silly.

Other stuff:

- Its the purple plot near the sept. It will stretch over the road so as to fulfill the the canon regarding Arya's all-seeing abilities that GRRM so prescribed her.

- Its not entirely symmetrical, with jagged edges and rounded cutoffs. The multiple fountains thing is because I wanted to cover the sewer holes when I expanded the square to be more rectangular (another response to feedback).

Probies Prohibited From Building At Stoney Sept:

This is a topic unto itself.

Like at Bitterbridge, I have expressly forbidden probies from building at Stoney Sept. It preserves quality, first and foremost. I realise the importance of probies building houses and getting use to these areas. Stoney Sept is not a practice ground. This is a town with a very free style which is not suitable for probies, who are just starting, to build in. Already, there are and will be struggles with fully-fledged builders building in the town, but lets be honest I can't cherrypick who's banned. Instead, I would rather not risk the reduction in quality from probies who are not prepared to handle normal, strict style guides - let alone broad, non-existant ones - yet. Some builders aren't either, but at least they have been through the probie process to the extent they are (presumably) able to handle normal style guided builds, and more prepared for the challenge of my town. For normal builders, Stoney Sept is difficult.

As a relative compromise, I have permitted probies one house each in Stoney Sept. I normally personally invite them to choose a plot, or allow a probie leader/responsible moderator to do so. I respect the importance of probies and them learning new styles, but Stoney Sept is not the place for that. I am going off precedent here in that project leads may choose who can build at their project - technically I could choose to only allow specific builders to build at Stoney Sept. Lets be honest though, it would be unrealistic to do so with the simultaneous goal of completing 200 something plots. I invite probies who become full builders to try their hand at Stoney Sept after achieving full buildership, and ofc invite any other full builders and mods to also build there (although I think we're out of plots for the time being until I've done my approval sweep).

I will give the probie-access situation more consideration at a later date, but for now SS is closed to a limit of one house per probie.

 

[EStoop]

I won't respond to most of your reply but I will focus on the probie issue instead.

First of all, you're a moderator. Your role in this community is that of guidance and leadership (amongst other things), and your unwillingness to help (new) builders to improve and develop themselves is baffling to me. I don't think it is appropriate for a moderator to block a specific group of builders from his or her project, since they of all people should be able to give proper feedback and guidance if needed. I think that as a moderator, you and other moderators should provide oppertunities for all builders to build. Be an example for the community.

The lack of style and the resulting hardship people experience while building at Stoney Sept is hardly their responsibility when there is no style to be followed.

 

[Howy]

I will take your opinion into my later consideration of the issue. For now, the prohibition remains in place at a maximum of one house per probie.

 

[otty]

I won't respond to most of your reply but I will focus on the probie issue instead.

First of all, you're a moderator. Your role in this community is that of guidance and leadership (amongst other things), and your unwillingness to help (new) builders to improve and develop themselves is baffling to me. I don't think it is appropriate for a moderator to block a specific group of builders from his or her project, since they of all people should be able to give proper feedback and guidance if needed. I think that as a moderator, you and other moderators should provide oppertunities for all builders to build. Be an example for the community.

The lack of style and the resulting hardship people experience while building at Stoney Sept is hardly their responsibility when there is no style to be followed.

As a probation leader. I respect where Howy is coming from. I want my builders to be learning from imitation through a style that is well established. When doing this they learn how to look for certain trends in appearance and shape. If by following a clearly organized look, I can easily inform them of their building issues and fully understand what the project lead had originally desired. Eventually once learning how to build like others, they will catch on as they build when it's appropriate to deviate from the style a bit to make builds more unique etc.

If the styles are broad and interpretive, then its hard to pinpoint issues with the homes the same way because nothing is necessarily "wrong" in the style. Our newer builders don't have our logic, standards, and reasoning fully obtained, which is what I try to teach them. Most of them often think that dated builds look just fine because they haven't appropriately learned to understand whats modern and what is dated. I recall being an extreme noob and thinking old KL wasn't half bad... I simply didn't know any better. The open style off SS causes struggles of understanding certain aspects of our logic and reasoning. Sure, while some things can be pointed out, it's much easier for them to understand if they/I have a definitive set of other homes to reference back to to help them understand.

I completely see your points too though and, the thought of denying probies a place to build isn't the most fair concept. They are always in great need of places to build and its unfortunate SS, a place with so many homes, isn't open. While I do believe that new builders probably could build satisfactory looking homes in SS, and they still could be somewhat taught, they are also severely missing the training to understand what it is that they're doing and why. And I think its fine that due to the unique circumstances that Howy likes to do his towns (Without a clear style and is extremely interpretive), that its probably best that those learning don't build their much.

However, this is my preferred way that my new builders learn. Others may see differently and that SS is a good place to start.

 

[DutchGuard]

oh hi there

Forgive my intrusion,
I think something we tried way back was floating plots above the build (or having them in test) and allowing anyone to build on the plots, allowing the lead to give feedback on the build before it reaches its final position.

This way creative control of the finished build is still in the hands of the lead, and can be moved into place by anyone with editor perms once it's fully approved and up to scratch, or deleted (after a set time) if the build does not meet standards or feedback is ignored by the builder.

This is more or less the system we already use, but there is more motivation for the contributing builder to follow up on feedback as failure to do so will ultimately lead to their build not being included in the final finished project.

At best you'll get lots of great houses for the town, at worst a lot of people will have the opportunity to test out a new style. Run your project how you like, but just something to consider!

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

I too know things about building

 

[Enah]

I too know things about building

Not enough flours in this comment