Project Application: Stoney Sept

Discussion in 'The Riverlands' started by Howy, May 4, 2018.

  1. Howy

    Howy Thanos Maester

    Due to density issues, I will be removing entirely a chunk of the Stoney Sept houses that have been built so far. This is to maintain the quality of the project and original plan I intended. This issue of density is mainly my fault for how the area was plotted, and not having the foresight at the time to see how it would turn out. Unfortunately, there is no space for the houses within the section, outlined in-game in red glass, to be moved to within the town. As such all houses there will be moved to the respective player's plots unless they contact me within 24 hours asking for it either to be deleted to moved elsewhere in test (within reason). I apologise for this, however especially with towns it is hard to know how it will look until its actually been built. Please check in-game if you have built at SS to see if your house is being removed.

    Note this is not going to happen with other areas built so far. The particular area being removed was a strange place of plotting forced due to its proximity between two previously placed roads. It is likely only two-four plots (houses) will take the place of the removed houses, if that.

    AerioOndos likes this.
  2. EStoop

    EStoop Peasant of Oldtown Builder


    Sorry for giving negative feedback yet again, but I noticed the bridge on the eastern side of the town has turned into a tower bridge, upping the eastern defences with an additional 2 gates, totalling to 3 consecutive gates. With defences like that, I doubt Stoney Sept would have been succesfully conquered multiple times in all the wars it has been mentioned in.

    Having said that, I still have concerns regarding the professions, style, class and size of the houses.
  3. Howy

    Howy Thanos Maester

    I added the drawbridge to permit taller boats to the main docks without entirely shifting the bridge location. I do realise how well defended the town now looks, so I will be (when I work on the walls) adding crumbling parts, broken gaps barely boarded up, etc.

    Regarding the latter bit...I've done my best to compromise on what I envision, and what each builder on the server envisions - while being consistent. I think SS has established itself in a style, and I will be continuing with that now that so many houses have been built.
    thecoddfish likes this.
  4. I really liked the previous version of the bridge, and I don’t think it needed to be changed. The drawbridge ruined the silhouette a bit imo, it seems a bit too cluttered with it.

    I can’t imagine many of the boats going down the river up to that point would be tall ships with sails or anything. It would be quite hard to maneuver a small meandering river like that. And even so, traders could unload cargo onto rowboats and bring them to the main docks, as was typically done in harbours.

    EDIT: Not to mention that bridges already exist on the river downstream from SS, with arches about the same size as the one you had originally.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  5. Howy

    Howy Thanos Maester

    I can look into adjusting the bridge. There will be enough settlements however to justify allowing taller boats (not too tall, riverworthy ones). The only bridge in the way that I can see is the Reach/Riverlands border crossing, and I see no reason that in the large swath of river between SS and there that taller boats wouldnt sail up and down. Its not about getting trade from KL to SS.
  6. hi I just wanna come out of college exile and point out that bridges existed where boats put down their masts. here is a pic from the braun and hogenberg is book that shows this.
    the boat on the left of the bridge has a lowered mast to pass under the bridge as far as I can tell.

    Howy, _Simbaa, Enah and 1 other person like this.
  7. Spikespiegel

    Spikespiegel Nobuild

    We are out of open plots in Stoney Sept D:
    AerioOndos and thecoddfish like this.
  8. Howy

    Howy Thanos Maester

    There is one remaining low class plot in the previously open area, and there are now six new middle class plots on the main road where I ripped out a bunch of houses before.
  9. Howy

    Howy Thanos Maester

    Hey all, this is an important post and relevant to not just Stoney Sept but to towns and builds generally:

    I've noticed a habit developing among builders where they use adjacent plots for stone to cover their furnaces, fireplaces, etc. This is forcing builders to use stone, and more specifically certain palettes of stone, for the adjacent plot.

    This is, in my opinion, wrong and unfair. If you are going to build that plot too, then fine, indicate as such and do so promptly after finishing your first plot. Otherwise, you are unfairly forcing another builder who might be interested in that plot to either:

    - accommodate for your inability to build a well-located fireplace; or
    - to find another plot to build.

    Especially in builds like Stoney Sept, where the 'foundation' (first floor) exterior palette is varied, this is inconsiderate and demonstrates a disregard for other builders and their potential creativity.

    From now on, I will be meloning houses that are:

    - Exposing fireplaces and leaving adjacent plots to cover them; or
    - Building stone on the edge of an adjacent plot to cover their fireplace.

    Please be more mindful of how your building impacts other builders in future. It is a habit that is showing in probies and a poor one at that. As a server we should be breaking this habit, and looking for other creative ways to deal with fireplaces that do not affect other nearby plots. I encourage builders and mods to also melon plots where this occurs and keep an eye on their own projects - notably projects with many houses and dense housing. As Oldtown nears, its a habit which needs to die, and die fast.
  10. You can remove both my houses.

    Thank You.
    Pottman and Enah like this.
  11. Spikespiegel

    Spikespiegel Nobuild

    You say that there is no set style for Stoney Sept, which a lot of people seem to have a lot of opinions on. My one problem with having no style in Stoney Sept is that the main square (the first thing you see when you warp in) does not reflect this. There are three white-washed buildings which all looks like special builds and one building with a wooden first floor, tucked away where you don't really notice it. The rest use the same stone palette with brown d&w and oak on top.
    Because this is what people see when you warp in, builders believe that this is the style you need to use in Stoney Sept. Take a walk through the eastern side of town and you will almost entirely see the same stone palette.

    I tried to remedy this, by building a brick and wattle building on the western side of the square, visible from where you spawn in. This was a building which stood out compared to the rest of the square, but didn't really use any materials or building techniques not already found in Stoney Sept. You didn't like the building, said it was too high class for a middle class plot and too low class for a high class plot. You didn't exactly told me to destroy it, just change everything about the exterior. Apparently, you want something that blends in with the rest of the square. Why? Why should everything on the main square look uniform, when you encourage us to build in different materials in the rest of the town?

    Another problem I have with Stoney Sept is that nothing gets approved. We see you melon the occassional building, but nothing ever gets approved. This is rather frustrating to me as a builder. I do not know which of the existing buildings you approve of for the project. I don't know which style(s)/building technique(s) I should emulate. Furthermore, I have to check back once in a while to see if you have requested changes to the buildings I've made.
    I know your plans for Stoney Sept is not final, and that things might get moved around and even nuked to better fit your vision for the final product. But does this really mean that you cannot approve any of the completed houses?

    Approved, to me, only means that you are fine with the end product, and that we have delivered a building you find to be in the spirit of your vision for Stoney Sept. Approved does not mean that a building may not end up being moved/deleted on a later date because you deem it to be best for the project.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  12. Well, to be honest, I strongly disagree on this.
    First, building this kind of fireplace doesn't mean you're "unable to build a well-located fireplace", but that you try to use best the space you have with the plot. We're in minecraft, with house walls of 1m large, meaning there are 2m of wall between 2 house int, I don't think digging a fireplace in the wall is that weird.

    Second, because it doesn't force the neighbor builder to "accomodate", they can try to hide the fireplace but if it's not possible for their plot, they can kindly put a melon to the other house saying "hey, sry i wasn't able to hide your fireplace, you'll probably have to move it".

    Third, because in a place with no style, meaning no blocks on plots to guide what should be used for building (what block for the walls, for the roof, etc), there's no restriction. With a city/town using styleguides (which has always been done afaik and will be done at OT too), you know what kind of material is used on the plot next to yours, so you know if it'll be stone and can hide your fireplace.

    Fourth, melons and chat can be really useful to sort that kind of "issue". One just need to say to their neighbor builder "hey, I'd like to put my fireplace like this, does it bother you?", or leave a melon on the side of the house saying the same thing. In last resort, the builder will have to change their fireplace, but there can be more communication before just forbidding this practice.

    And as a final remark, I really don't think this should be prohibited in OT, as I don't see it as a real issue.
    Andy_Jones, Pottman, Enah and 3 others like this.
  13. This isn't the issue at hand. If I were to build adjacent to an existing house, and the stone-components of that house matched up to mine in such a way that I could create a fireplace using that houses stone as a backing, there would be no problem with that. The problem is when somebody designs a house with the fireplace/fire exposed to an unbuilt plot, which then requires the next builder to potentially adjust their creative image to accomodate for this. There is nothing wrong with this sort of fire place, the problem is a lack of etiquette surrounding their construction.

    I think you've missed the point here. In this case the onus is still unfairly placed on the builder of the adjacent plot to "try" to cover up for the original builders inability to create a complete fireplace. Clear communication would be helpful in resolving these situations as you have said, but this isn't foolproof - between builders going AWOL or not checking their houses frequently and newer team members not understanding their right to melon the adjacent house, it's clear that this isn't a realistic excuse.

    Yes there is still a creative restriction because you are imposing the choice of a stone foundation on the adjacent plot. There have also been cases where a builder has done this for a fireplace on the second floor of a plot, which provides a severe restriction on the adjacent plot - they must make that wall entirely stone to cover up the fireplace, and they are also less able to experiment with alternate building shapes because they have to cover the open fireplace. It's situations like this that I find the most unfair.

    I agree with Howy that building a fireplace that puts the burden of responsibility on the builder of the adjoining plot to cover it with stone is unfair, especially in situations where the fireplace isn't on the ground floor. We should regard it as poor building etiquette and instead teach people alternate techniques - perhaps the fireplace section at /warp furnish could become a point of reference for this?
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
  14. EStoop

    EStoop Peasant of Oldtown Builder

    As Howy and Codd point out there are some difficulties (generic "problems don't exist" management positivity bullshit quote here) when making a build-in fireplace. However, I think these issues can be solved relatively easily by communicating with eachother. Builders are not required to fix or accommodate the creative outlet of other builders.

    Of all creative decisions, I personally think the build-in fireplace is one of the easiest to fix, as long as people are being at least a little bit considerate when making them. We don't complain about build-in bookshelves, windows, dormers, roofs, overhangs, building height, gardens or chimneys, because we are able to resolve them on our own or together. I don't see why this particular issue should be handled differently.

    I'd rather have staff policing the building guidelines for block use (fence or net windows for example), unreasonably thick chimneys, thatch roof leakage (the number of holes in thatch is insane), unrealistic portrayal of professions (like our average roper, but there are many more), modern floorplans and utilities (interior toilets, multi bedroom low and middle class), furniture (I shit you not I've seen couches and modern kitchens) and plotting.

    In any case, the project thread for Stoney Sept is hardly the place to discuss proper building etiquette.
    Especially since at this project there is, in fact, none (by choice)
  15. Ark and I will be assisting with approvals, you can feel free to message us if you have any questions about plots, location of chimneys etc.
  16. EStoop

    EStoop Peasant of Oldtown Builder

    Will there only be house approvals or will something be done with the (by now) essay worth of feedback given on the town? I feel like most, if not all given feedback has been discarded or ignored so far.

    Beside that, there is a Fairmarket amount of (actually more, it's over 100 already) unapproved , unfeedbacked freestyle houses while there are apparantly plots still open to build. I think it might be a good idea not to add any more houses to that number untill the feedback and approval process is finished. Just close the project for a few days so Howy, Ark and Cash have time to properly catch up.
  17. Howy

    Howy Thanos Maester

    I decided a few days ago to halt opening any more sections until all houses are approved. Basically we will be checking through houses. I am hoping to avoid what has occurred once already within the project, and that is removing a chunk of houses. However, if it does occur I will make sure all houses are reappropriated to their respective builder's test plots. I felt really uncomfortable doing it last time, and will try to avoid it if at all possible.

    I appreciate and love the enthusiasm of builders, so I apologise for the delay in house availability for the coming few days or so.
    CashBanks and Spikespiegel like this.
  18. All the finished houses have now been reviewed and feedback given where we had some thoughts. If you've finished a plot please take a look for any notes on the yellow wool blocks or melons.

    Overall we agree that some great progress has been made, and a style has been more or less established, though some adjustments will be made to the low class palette. With over 60 houses now completed there's plenty of inspiration for anyone looking to start a new plot, I would suggest not straying too far from the existing styles/palettes.

    My only specific note for builders working on a middle class house is to factor in the owner's social class when outfitting it with the features of their profession. So anybody working on a middle class house needs to make sure they evidence enough success/investment in the profession to justify the middle class lifestyle. E.g. a middle class fowler needs to have A LOT of chickens, or a middle class butcher has a big abattoir area etc.

    Howy will be opening new plots in the next few days. Exciting to see the project coming along with such enthusiasm.
    Howy, Emotione11 and oOIOoMajic like this.