Approved Mega Project: Upper Honeywine (Brightwater Keep, Roxton, Hastwyck) by Margaery Tyrell

[Margaery_Tyrell]

Here is my application:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bMbgNjohBxEmIVExxPkz9bnfioXDvaKTKHUMm6FjbD0/edit?usp=sharing

Thank you!

 

[Enah]

approved

 

[AerioOndos]

Which castle are you using Amboise as inspiration for? Brightwater?

For the other two, it'd only be good in it's 13th-early 14th century form.

Loving the development of terrain and just as further recommendation, I'd suggest placing the forests only on hillsides or difficult terrain to cut wood on, and having managed copses elsewhere on flat ground.
It'd help give the feeling that the region hosts a very large population centre that'd consume a huge amount of wood and so the best quality resources in accessible places would have already been exploited.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

Which castle are you using Amboise as inspiration for? Brightwater?

For the other two, it'd only be good in it's 13th-early 14th century form.

Loving the development of terrain and just as further recommendation, I'd suggest placing the forests only on hillsides or difficult terrain to cut wood on, and having managed copses elsewhere on flat ground.
It'd help give the feeling that the region hosts a very large population centre that'd consume a huge amount of wood and so the best quality resources in accessible places would have already been exploited.

Yes for Brightwater and yes in the 13th century version as the modern is too…deconstructed and palac-y for my tastes, I picked Amboise for its placement on the hill overlooking a river and because of its historical paralells (King Louis the XIV basically stripped the noble of Amboise to get access to his citrus trees for the Orangerie at Versailles, the same way the Tyrells attainted the Florents)

And yes that us my intention for the forests as well

 

[Opaco123]

I would make an argument for a proper godswood in BWK as opposed to a garden. Godswoods would be signs of heritage and wealth, and all canon indicates houses try to have them whenever possible. The Arryns attempted to put a weirwood in the Eyrie despite being fully Andal, a godwood was put into Harrenhal despite the Hoares believing in the FotS, the Targaryens put a godswood in the Red Keep despite having no connection to the First Men, etc. The fact that HIghgarden and near every other great castle in Westeros still has its godswood is a sign that it's fashionable. Also the Florents are known for claiming their First Men heritage and connection to the Gardeners as why they are more fit to rule Highgarden over the Tyrells; a godswood would show this lineage. IMO the only places where not having a godswood would be common are places where they're unable to grow or were conquered by Andals, neither of which apply to the Reach.

On a more meta note, this server focuses highly on realism over fantasy. Godswoods are the one canonical aspect of castles in ASOIAF that make them purely Westerosi and not just European. They are a way to undeniably tie castles to ASOIAF and I think that's a good thing, especially for an important castle like BWK.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

I would make an argument for a proper godswood in BWK as opposed to a garden. Godswoods would be signs of heritage and wealth, and all canon indicates houses try to have them whenever possible. The Arryns attempted to put a weirwood in the Eyrie despite being fully Andal, a godwood was put into Harrenhal despite the Hoares believing in the FotS, the Targaryens put a godswood in the Red Keep despite having no connection to the First Men, etc. The fact that HIghgarden and near every other great castle in Westeros still has its godswood is a sign that it's fashionable. Also the Florents are known for claiming their First Men heritage and connection to the Gardeners as why they are more fit to rule Highgarden over the Tyrells; a godswood would show this lineage. IMO the only places where not having a godswood would be common are places where they're unable to grow or were conquered by Andals, neither of which apply to the Reach.

On a more meta note, this server focuses highly on realism over fantasy. Godswoods are the one canonical aspect of castles in ASOIAF that make them purely Westerosi and not just European. They are a way to undeniably tie castles to ASOIAF and I think that's a good thing, especially for an important castle like BWK.

I’ll take this into consideration for Brightwater.

I am planning to incorporate a weirwood in some capacity for Bwk. The Reach is heavily Andalized and the Florents have a tendency (especially recently) to jump ship to other faiths so it wouldn’t surprise me if The Florents dumped the Old Gods for the Seven by cutting down their weirwood or secularizing their Godswood like the Tullys did.

But thank you for the suggestion

 

[Kor_Bro]

I like this. You Florent loyalist.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

I like this. You Florent loyalist.

Says the Florent

 

[Elduwin]

What's your plan of work? I would heavily suggest doing one area at a time.
Very much happy to approve, provided you ask before any major change to the initial plans. Good luck, make the Reach proud!

 

[CashBanks]

Happy to jump on as an approving mod too.

Would be good to get some details of the planned non-redo update of the Honeyholt area when those are ready. I'll echo Eld's point as well about avoiding taking on too much terra at once, space it out so it's not all placeholder. Can loop me in when you want to make a start on the Honeywine.

Florent scum!

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

What's your plan of work? I would heavily suggest doing one area at a time.
Very much happy to approve, provided you ask before any major change to the initial plans. Good luck, make the Reach proud!

Its on the app I plan on doing Norcross-> Hastwyck -> Brightwater

bwk is last bc of the terra and Id need to cooperate with the Oldtown terra team

and thank you!

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

/warp NorcrossVillage and its environs are now open, theres a couple things to test for on your plots. Please dont be afraid to ask me questions.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

Hello there is an open mini at /warp roxtonseptry, the details of the septry is on the giant ball of wool.

Please indicate where I can find the build if you're going to test for it (warp and coords), and feel free to be creative with the parameters given (except no usage of terrainset in the pallete).

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

There are plots available at /warp roxtonhamlet2.

Please use the houses at /warp roxtonhamlet1 as a style guide. 2 story houses are based off of houses at /warp roxtonvillage.

There is also an inn to test on your plot at /warp roxtonhamlet2

Feel free to msg me about any questions and no terrainsets in the pallete

 

[Azulejo]

Hey Marge! I have a suggestion to make. I see that in your app, as well as in your current ingame plans, Hastwyck is gonna sit on a cliff overlooking the sea. While that's a valid location for a castle, I feel like in general, but in the area you are working at specifically, it's a bit of a overdone trope. Bandallon, Roxton and Uffering are all currently located on cliffs or spurs overlooking the sea, projects that are located one after the other going down the Reach's coast.



Castles of a cliff are indeed historical, but less common that what our server makes one think. They have one major flaw: cliffs erode, and the castle will come down with it. Looking at your current terra, it seems like Hastwyck's cliffs are pretty soft, which would make building at the edge of them a challenging endeavour, as well as a potential waste, given the short lifespan the building at its top will have. Ballandon shows this phenomenon: there's visible chunks of the castle missing at it's seaside, having sunk with the rock bellow some time before our server date.

Another thing to consider is the menace that sea attacks present. While it could seem that an area frequently under the constant pillaging of pirates or raiders would raise mighty defenses near the coast, in real life more often that not population flew inland while keeping and eye at the sea with watchtowers. Given that Hastwyck is sandwiched between two big coastal castles and its status as a minor house, I think it is likely that it is located more inland, since by itself it wouldn't be able to sustain a castle strong enough to protect those around it, and if needed the surrounding houses can ward off ironborn.

There's several routes you can take regarding this change. The castle could be located on a small natural hill, or on the lowland, perhaps even an artificial mound. It would be interesting to play with the challenge of having to raise a fortification on a terrain that's "unfavorable". Just like the castles at the Crownlands, located mostly on plains, Hastwyck could rely more on artifical defenses, forced by the lack of natural ones. If needed you can start your brainstorming with this wikipedia page about Lowland Castles. It is worth pointing out that among the list of castles on this page those located at the sea or coast are mentioned as a possibility. While this is true the whole point of this post is to move away from that, so you can disregard that bit.

Given that house Hastwyck has no canon location, there's plenty of room to play with it, and obviously given that a redo was approved for it there's no need to keep any features of the old version (like the fact that it was located on a small rocky peninsula).​

 

[AerioOndos]

Agreed with Azul here, considering there are more coastal forts to come near OT, having a Hastwyck as a seastack castle does seem a bit silly. Also, castles like Girnigoe Sinclair in our world end up being incredibly expensive to try and maintain the cliffs as much as possible, so withdrawal inland does end up being cheaper for a small house. Having an interesting watchtower or holdfast on the stack, but keeping a proper castle inland would also give the impression that despite the King's Peace, Reachmen still haven't returned to the coast in force since the Greyjoys last went reaving around the Mander 14 years prior.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

I will consider your suggestions, the castle
location is not set yet (Hence there being Three Yellow Concrete Balls) but that being said Im not convinced of the “Its overdone” argument as this is based on vibes rather than anything concrete.

Hastwyck could rely more on artifical defenses, forced by the lack of natural ones.

And what examples do you have of man-made defenses that won’t interrupt the landscape of the environment? Im not a fan of some of the sprawling walls of sod and logs some projects have as man made defenses, that are too English for the project.

And all the examples in your list are all too far inland if Im being honest all being placed in flat farmlands and alluvial fields dozens if not hundreds of miles from the coast

Hastwyck even being generous with its land claim is a an entirely coastal project.

Reachmen still haven't returned to the coast in force since the Greyjoys last went reaving around the Mander 14 years prior.

Per canon there are many villages and hamlets on the coast and Mander Delta for the Ironborn to raid during their attacks in The Reach so a “withdrawal” isn’t supported by canon, it would be more lightly populated but not “withdrawn” from.

The former means that settlements are sparser because settlements were less likely to be founded, the latter would necessitate the existence of withdrawn settlements from Greyjoy’s Rebellion and the War of the Five Kings

 

[Azulejo]

I will consider your suggestions, the castle location is not set yet (Hence there being Three Yellow Concrete Balls) but that being said Im not convinced of the “Its overdone” argument as this is based on vibes rather than anything concrete.​

It is indeed a weaker argument than a direct canon quote, but aesthetics, realism (somewhat) and regional cohesiveness/coherence are aspects we usually take into account when building a project (not saying you haven't done that, just saying that that's were my feedback comes from).​

• Aesthetics I didn't mention on my post, but I think it is a fair concern that the castle may dwarf the cliffs below it and the terra around it, as well as making it look a bit odd as said cliffs don't seem that stable either (they are already separating from the main coastland). Pyke canonically has this dispossition, but that's something we can't change, if we wanted to, which I doubt.​
• Realism, as I explained, due to the fact that cliff castles are less common that what we assume (particularly those on dramatic near-vertical cliffsides), and they are also not very durable, for the most part.​
• Cohesiveness/coherence is what I was refereing under the "overdone" tag. I think it is fair to point out when something within a region or close proximity has been done several times already, specially if that is something that isn't that common in the first place, or meant to be repeated. When possible some variation, within a set of shared features, is positive.​

I'm not sure I can't be more concrete, but I don't think I'm being particularly vague either. In any case if you group this under "vibes", I think it is fair to say vibes are important as well.

I wasn't aware of the fact that the castle location wasn't decided, I assumed so given the location signaled on your app as well as the castle mini showing a cliff. I did not notice the yellow balls floating on the project were meant to show the possible locations of the castle.
​

And what examples do you have of man-made defenses that won’t interrupt the landscape of the environment? Im not a fan of some of the sprawling walls of sod and logs some projects have as man made defenses, that are too English for the project.​

Well, defenses are usually meant to interrupt the landscape in some way, I'm not sure I can give you an example of one type that doesn't. I guess a ha-ha, but those are not very defensive, mostly done with aesthetics as their first priority. Regarding the English-ness of some of the features you mention, while those are commonplace in motte-and-bailey castles, a model that is very present in England, they aren't unique to them, nor motte-and-bailey castles are limited to the British Isles. It is a practical solution for when one lacks a natural elevation to raise a castle at. I quote from Wikipedia:​

​

The motte-and-bailey castle is a particularly northern European phenomenon, most numerous in Normandy and Britain, but also seen in Denmark, Germany, Southern Italy and occasionally beyond. European castles first emerged in the 9th and 10th centuries, after the fall of the Carolingian Empire resulted in its territory being divided among individual lords and princes and local territories became threatened by the Magyars and the Norse. Against this background, various explanations have been put forward to explain the origins and spread of the motte-and-bailey design across northern Europe; there is often a tension among the academic community between explanations that stress military and social reasons for the rise of this design. One suggestion is that these castles were built particularly in order to protect against external attack – the Angevins, it is argued, began to build them to protect against the Viking raids, and the design spread to deal with the attacks along the Slav and Hungarian frontiers. Another argument is that, given the links between this style of castle and the Norman style, who were of Viking descent, it was in fact originally a Viking design, transported to Normandy and Anjou. The motte-and-bailey castle was certainly effective against assault, although as historian André Debord suggests, the historical and archaeological record of the military operation of motte-and-bailey castles remains relatively limited.​

And all the examples in your list are all too far inland if Im being honest all being placed in flat farmlands and alluvial fields dozens if not hundreds of miles from the coast. Hastwyck even being generous with its land claim is a an entirely coastal project.​

The Wikipedia article I linked was mostly to introduce you to alternative ways of making a castle when there's no natural height to take advantage of. I think it is fair to say that for the most part Hastwyck, while having mostly plain and very low terrain, isn't devoid of some kind of hill or incline to provide defenses. So the few examples of castles shown there are not the best fit for the area. Having said that it being coastal doesn't mean its castle has to be right by the coast. It can control it from a safe distance away from its dangers.
​

Per canon there are many villages and hamlets on the coast and Mander Delta for the Ironborn to raid during their attacks in The Reach so a “withdrawal” isn’t supported by canon, it would be more lightly populated but not “withdrawn” from. The former means that settlements are sparser because settlements were less likely to be founded, the latter would necessitate the existence of withdrawn settlements from Greyjoy’s Rebellion and the War of the Five Kings.​

I agree with you on this. Ironborn raids probably have made it so the settlements on the coast exposed to their menance are fewer, more concentrated and smaller than those coasts withouth that menace, but there would still be people at the coast. Thought it would be interesting to have some small fishing ham that was abandoned after a devasting raid and never resettled, a cute detail to consider if you have room for it. I know you've added a ruined septry (?) on the area, now housing a camp. Maybe that was also severly raided and abandoned.
​

---

With this long post I just want you to consider, as you already mentioned you would do, the possibility of doing something different to what you have planned for the area. It's far from an order ofc, I'm not even your approving mod. I think it is fair to say that this would've been nicer before approval, but I hope that the state of Hastwyck is not advanced enough to consider changes like this too late to do.​

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

I will take your suggestions in mind, but as I said before I actually haven't decided where the castle will be, and I ask for the next time that you try to get my feedback either in-game or on discord for further clarification (since you both weren't aware of the castle location sites) as this feels more like a public "call out" to get me to push the project in a certain direction outside of the purview of my two approving mods, who I have shared my (admittedly vague) ideas for Hastwyck.

I understand that people can sometimes feel frustrated that a project is outside their direct control often try to put fingers in as many pies as they can to get influence over the project in question, but asking the lead builder in charge of a project what their intentions are, rather than speaking about it amongst themselves and making a public show of it is a better way to find out the details of what direction the project is going towards.

 

[Azulejo]

I'd try my best to respond to this message. Labelling a forum post as a "public call out" or a "public show" seems like a problematic take to me. Giving feedback via the forums has been a standard procedure since their existance, as that's what they are meant to be used for. They are a place for open discussion to develop, something I find very hard to argue against. If someone shares their thoughts about x project here is not because they are looking for peer pressure to back them up (at least I hope that's not their motivation), but rather have others share their POVs, see if the majority agrees or disagrees and have a record so that it is known that the feedback was gave and read. This is a method as valid as sharing your thoughts privately via chat or discord.

In fact, and this is my personal opinion, I find it to be a much better way of going about feedback. Sometimes giving FB privately can lead to modifications in projects that end up taking the community by surprise, as there's no record of a discussion about the matter ever happening. It also leads to potential missunderstandings, as there's the chance of disagreements rising up that are hard to clear out, as it all took place in a private space. Besides, the forums provide a much more ordered and neat space where long argumented posts can be constructed, a possibility that is very limited, hard and tedious to do on discord, and impossible ingame. To add to all of this, the forums are (or were, by the looks of things) one of the if not the best, easiest and preferred ways of reaching a lead about their projects. Once again, that's their whole point. Project threads are there not to only announce open minis or plots, but also reaching the lead about their plans at any given moment.​