Jeffjunior77
Bookbinder
Yeah wooden pier is what I had in my mind… sorry thought docs and pier is the same lol
Approved House Estermont by Jeff
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The Spring 2023 edition of The Rookery is now out! Take a look to see the latest builds, guides, progress and development updates on the upcoming 1.18.2 switch. You can read it here:
https://indd.adobe.com/view/f943da18-ed77-4d55-845d-fee9bfa14247
Jakethesnake8_8
Firemage
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I wonder whether this smaller island really warrants a watchtower and a holdfast?
Considering its only inhabitants are a small community of fisherman, both seems a bit extreme. Especially considering there’s a castle and two other holdfasts on the main island. Perhaps a watchtower and a signal fire post would be more appropriate?
Having both would not only not make sense, but would also lead to an issue that plagues many island projects - spacing. If you have a lot of things cramped into a small space like an island, you greatly run the risk of dwarfing the terrain and making the island feel smaller.
I’d presume the Estermonts would try and marry their children off to families on the mainland. Considering Greenstone’s lack of available natural resources and harsh weather conditions, I’d say it’s unlikely that the lord of Greenstone would be building many, if any, holdfasts on the island and affording them to other minor lords and his children. Smaller watchtowers make more sense, because pirates would be a problem or have been a problem, so it makes more sense that there’d be a string of watchtowers (similar to those in Ghost Hill and the Tor).
So I’d recommend swapping the holdfast for a signal fire, and keeping the small watchtower.
Considering its only inhabitants are a small community of fisherman, both seems a bit extreme. Especially considering there’s a castle and two other holdfasts on the main island. Perhaps a watchtower and a signal fire post would be more appropriate?
Having both would not only not make sense, but would also lead to an issue that plagues many island projects - spacing. If you have a lot of things cramped into a small space like an island, you greatly run the risk of dwarfing the terrain and making the island feel smaller.
I’d presume the Estermonts would try and marry their children off to families on the mainland. Considering Greenstone’s lack of available natural resources and harsh weather conditions, I’d say it’s unlikely that the lord of Greenstone would be building many, if any, holdfasts on the island and affording them to other minor lords and his children. Smaller watchtowers make more sense, because pirates would be a problem or have been a problem, so it makes more sense that there’d be a string of watchtowers (similar to those in Ghost Hill and the Tor).
So I’d recommend swapping the holdfast for a signal fire, and keeping the small watchtower.
Jeffjunior77
Bookbinder
Thanks for ur feedback Jake.
Maybe I will get rid of the watchtower it would be to much.
U are right it would small the island!
But I will defiantly keep the hf.
It will be a small hf close to a watchtower but still a hf from a knight that serves to the Estermonts. Also I have only one hf on the main island. The small tower is just a watchtower not a hf.
~Jeff
IMajic
Royal Messenger
Maybe an idea Jeff, as you are looking for some sort of defence.
Instead of a holdfast/watchtower, as others agreed that it was best not use them.
You could have a very basic fire beacon, more like wood stacked on a platform to warn for pirates coming from the south as to warn the main Estermont islands of an impending raid/attack, nothing large like a small beacon.
Instead of a holdfast/watchtower, as others agreed that it was best not use them.
You could have a very basic fire beacon, more like wood stacked on a platform to warn for pirates coming from the south as to warn the main Estermont islands of an impending raid/attack, nothing large like a small beacon.
Jeffjunior77
Bookbinder
Hey Maj,
Yeah i alrdy got rid of the Watchtower ! a beacon is a good idea maybe as communication between the Two islands.
i will think about that thank you !
Jeff
Augurex
Poet
Terrific job so far, Jeff. I toured the island the other day and liked it a fair bit. The holdfast on the southwestern tip of the island is my favorite part of the lands. After a few days, a couple questions still linger.
1.) Why does the castle have two gates? It's a small castle, yet there are considerable points of ingress on either side of it. One of them doesn't have its own gatehouse, but it's definitely a full-fledged gate as opposed to a postern. The gate(house) is always the weakest part of a castle, and a military designer would want to minimize weaknesses. This build doesn't seem to warrant a second gate. Is there a canonical reason?
2.) There seem to be lots of planned guest rooms. I suspect this is a nod to the royal stay on the island when Joffrey Hill was conceived. Idk if there would actually be so many guest rooms, however, esp. for a small castle. Likely, a lot of rooms serving other, more permanent functions were converted into temporary lodgings for the royal visit.
Thanks for reading. Looking forward to the finished product.
1.) Why does the castle have two gates? It's a small castle, yet there are considerable points of ingress on either side of it. One of them doesn't have its own gatehouse, but it's definitely a full-fledged gate as opposed to a postern. The gate(house) is always the weakest part of a castle, and a military designer would want to minimize weaknesses. This build doesn't seem to warrant a second gate. Is there a canonical reason?
2.) There seem to be lots of planned guest rooms. I suspect this is a nod to the royal stay on the island when Joffrey Hill was conceived. Idk if there would actually be so many guest rooms, however, esp. for a small castle. Likely, a lot of rooms serving other, more permanent functions were converted into temporary lodgings for the royal visit.
Thanks for reading. Looking forward to the finished product.
Jeffjunior77
Bookbinder
Hey Everyone,
thank you for ur Feedback! i Changed quest rooms to more other stuff like Storage makes sense ye. But i have to say that Greenstone was onc the main Habour of the Stormlands Fleed what means that alof of Higher Born ppl could visit this place. Thats why some quest rooms that was planned are empty and not used until other Lords and maybe once the Stormking arrived in Greenstone.
About the Gates i choosed now a other design for the smaller gate what maybe makes more sense.
Beside that i am done with my Project so far!
I Think Greenstone is ready for post-approval now!
thank you for ur Feedback! i Changed quest rooms to more other stuff like Storage makes sense ye. But i have to say that Greenstone was onc the main Habour of the Stormlands Fleed what means that alof of Higher Born ppl could visit this place. Thats why some quest rooms that was planned are empty and not used until other Lords and maybe once the Stormking arrived in Greenstone.
About the Gates i choosed now a other design for the smaller gate what maybe makes more sense.
Beside that i am done with my Project so far!
I Think Greenstone is ready for post-approval now!
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These guest rooms would have been repurposed in the 300 years since Argilac the Arrogant died. Extra storage rooms for wood, cloth, clean linens and tapestries to hang in winter (since greenstone would be v warm/hot they'd put many away in summer) are always helpful. I've got some more feedback though too.
After looking through some Essosi lore again its plain that the last major raid on Cape Wrath (I'd include Estermont in this) is in 8 AC. My recommendations in the past were on the basis on hundreds of years pre-conquest defences, not so recent as this. Not long before the 8 AC raid, pirates from the Stepstones pillaged Cape Wrath while Argilac the Arrogant fought the Targaryens (1 BC). While these two incidents are hundreds of years ago, fortifications built in the aftermath of these disasters would have been rebuilt/reinforced after the Myrish Civil War/Bloodbath (91-92 AC) and subsequent invasion of Tarth by Myrmen (92 AC) and for the War of the Nine Penny Kings (260 AC).
"In the aftermath of the Myrish Bloodbath of 91–92 AC, pirates from Myr took over the eastern coast of Tarth. Lord Corlys Velaryon joined his fleets with the soldiers of Lord Boremund Baratheon to retake the island. Prince Aemon Targaryen flew on Caraxes to the hidden mountain camp of Lord Cameron Tarth. A Myrish scout killed the prince with his crossbow, however. Prince Baelon Targaryen retaliated by burning the Myrish ships with Vhagar, while Cameron and Boremund slaughtered the thousands of Myrmen on land." - Fire and Blood
Put in a few more watch posts. These shouldn't be full towers, have some small old fires or soon to be lit ones where a watchman has sat at their post looking for sails. Many of the Stepstones pirates are Myrish and so their capabilities would be similar to the attackers who occupied eastern Tarth but in lesser numbers. These hard men would be expert climbers so revisiting the town defences to be more defensive would also be good.
Another point with the town plotting is in regards to the fields. Considering the thin soil of the island, crops should be grown on even flatter terraces. The carrots on the northern side of town are a good benchmark to use.
Additionally fortifying the septry and turning into the town's refuge would be wise and limiting the amount of room dedicated to the dead or to corridors/walkways gives you more room for life and vibrancy. Rather than the big austere stone drum there could be some coloured interiors too if it was remodelled to be a bit less bulby. Also I'd advise against burning boats as a funerary practice. Wood is already a luxury so other burial options could be more interesting.
Way back near the start of the project, I suggested using a mixture of ancient rock cut cliff tombs (attached image from Malta) and sky burial (leaving corpses to be broken up/return to the elements). What if one of the cliffs near the quarry had many cuts in the rock that looked like a bird rookery from a distance, but then you get closer and there are shrines, candles and lots of human bones in little ossuaries?
After looking through some Essosi lore again its plain that the last major raid on Cape Wrath (I'd include Estermont in this) is in 8 AC. My recommendations in the past were on the basis on hundreds of years pre-conquest defences, not so recent as this. Not long before the 8 AC raid, pirates from the Stepstones pillaged Cape Wrath while Argilac the Arrogant fought the Targaryens (1 BC). While these two incidents are hundreds of years ago, fortifications built in the aftermath of these disasters would have been rebuilt/reinforced after the Myrish Civil War/Bloodbath (91-92 AC) and subsequent invasion of Tarth by Myrmen (92 AC) and for the War of the Nine Penny Kings (260 AC).
"In the aftermath of the Myrish Bloodbath of 91–92 AC, pirates from Myr took over the eastern coast of Tarth. Lord Corlys Velaryon joined his fleets with the soldiers of Lord Boremund Baratheon to retake the island. Prince Aemon Targaryen flew on Caraxes to the hidden mountain camp of Lord Cameron Tarth. A Myrish scout killed the prince with his crossbow, however. Prince Baelon Targaryen retaliated by burning the Myrish ships with Vhagar, while Cameron and Boremund slaughtered the thousands of Myrmen on land." - Fire and Blood
Put in a few more watch posts. These shouldn't be full towers, have some small old fires or soon to be lit ones where a watchman has sat at their post looking for sails. Many of the Stepstones pirates are Myrish and so their capabilities would be similar to the attackers who occupied eastern Tarth but in lesser numbers. These hard men would be expert climbers so revisiting the town defences to be more defensive would also be good.
Another point with the town plotting is in regards to the fields. Considering the thin soil of the island, crops should be grown on even flatter terraces. The carrots on the northern side of town are a good benchmark to use.
Additionally fortifying the septry and turning into the town's refuge would be wise and limiting the amount of room dedicated to the dead or to corridors/walkways gives you more room for life and vibrancy. Rather than the big austere stone drum there could be some coloured interiors too if it was remodelled to be a bit less bulby. Also I'd advise against burning boats as a funerary practice. Wood is already a luxury so other burial options could be more interesting.
Way back near the start of the project, I suggested using a mixture of ancient rock cut cliff tombs (attached image from Malta) and sky burial (leaving corpses to be broken up/return to the elements). What if one of the cliffs near the quarry had many cuts in the rock that looked like a bird rookery from a distance, but then you get closer and there are shrines, candles and lots of human bones in little ossuaries?
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Jeffjunior77 : If you would like Greenstone to be included in The Rookery, please write up a wiki article for the project!
Jeffjunior77
Bookbinder
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I previously left feedback on the sept and septry that has not been addressed but the melons have been removed. Not sure if the following feedback applies to Jeff or KDS.
The main issue is with use of different rooms. Why is the sept structure stuffed full of beds in that level above the office? Why is there an office connected directly to the sept, rather than a sacristy, refectory or other public area/facilities relevant to the sept? Why is the fireplace entirely made of smooth river pebbles? wouldn't it make more sense for the block mix to be bricks of some sort?
is the western wing of the septry (perfect place for cells/bunks for the brothers/sisters) empty because the sept is stuffed full of beds?
Can the (presumably) masters chambers be revisited so that the windows and ceiling height work together (as I built a model of before and has now been removed, having not been implemented as suggested (at least copy it above or something so there's some before/after) and general furniture having a consistent level of wealth.
Is there a reason there are enormous fireplaces in the northern wing (common room, corridor-like rooms that could be bunkrooms/cells) and tiny fireplaces in the most richly furnished rooms? Also why are they nice, imported brown stone but the chimneys are grey local stone?
Expand the scriptorium to the upper floors of the southern wing. They really need light to work, so the library/room with the table surrounded by bookshelves is virtually unusable. You could improve the light situation by expanding the scriptorium to occupy the second floor as well. Having libraries/scriptorium above the ground floor is the most effective way to keep books safe from damp and flooding.
In the place of the dark library bit, you could have a porter's lodge or something with an arrow slit through to the entrance way.
If the eastern wing ground floor room is a body washing place, put a stranger's symbol or something cos otherwise it looks like a medicine room, herbal tea making spot or otherwise.
Why are there stools in the dark in the masters bedroom? Also use the design of the scriptorium desks for the masters desk. It shows some more consistency and looks better with the hoppers, while also not seeming so much like a shelf.
Chests are overused in the masters apartments. There's other things the space could be used for, test around a bit.
Yet again, lift the main windows in the masters chambers up a block. they shouldn't be at the floor level. Also the whole point of moving the floor up and making it 2 blocks thick was so that you could put in nice carpets or interesting wooden floor patterns. This evidently didn't happen.
In the castle:
Use sand, not snow, for spilt flour. Snow looks like spilled salt more than white flour which ofc is a warm white, rather than a cool white colour.
Southern Drum - Don't use dark wattle and normal wattle in the same room for virtually the same function. the normal wattle looks better with jungle anyway.
The stone ceiling is v strange. either commit to a proper arched vault or make proper supports. A hopper and wall column isn't going to hold 9x9 of stone bricks. The rest of the ints are good.
Southern storage - Make sure there's some block variation in the roof. It doesn't all look good as basalt cobbles. Add some northern wood or bedrock
I'd put some windows on the servants quarters, even small tiny 1 1/4 stair holes to allow some air in. Its still the stormlands and it apparently gets v hot and humid in summer.
I think the wooden part of the staircase next to it could be a bit better executed. Maybe have a look around at a few constructions over the server to find some good examples. There might be some at the vikary mine or on the westbrook-uffering bridge.
Southern thin tower - now that is a vaulted ceiling in the bottom floor! thats nice. Good vibes. Anyway, I'm liking this tower but switch out the fancy table block in the barrack for a pot or endcrate + button. its too fancy with its parquet top.
Stables - these really need more ventilation. I know its wet and rainy but these would stink soooo much. Spread fresh straw on the ground to help soak up water. you don't want the animals getting hoof-rot, which the wet pebbles would only encourage.
Cellar - is fine
Forge - cool ints! I'd still add a window or two though. v hot.
Chicken coop - always good in a castle.
Guard's hall attached to tower - is good.
Eastern thin tower - don't like the room in between the guards hall and the wall walk. It should have a 2x2 table with more stuff on it and something in the opposite corner too. feel v empty and sterile. I don't think you need a big table at the very top of all of these towers, especially as they'd have to build it piece by piece handed up the ladder
The main issue is with use of different rooms. Why is the sept structure stuffed full of beds in that level above the office? Why is there an office connected directly to the sept, rather than a sacristy, refectory or other public area/facilities relevant to the sept? Why is the fireplace entirely made of smooth river pebbles? wouldn't it make more sense for the block mix to be bricks of some sort?
is the western wing of the septry (perfect place for cells/bunks for the brothers/sisters) empty because the sept is stuffed full of beds?
Can the (presumably) masters chambers be revisited so that the windows and ceiling height work together (as I built a model of before and has now been removed, having not been implemented as suggested (at least copy it above or something so there's some before/after) and general furniture having a consistent level of wealth.
Is there a reason there are enormous fireplaces in the northern wing (common room, corridor-like rooms that could be bunkrooms/cells) and tiny fireplaces in the most richly furnished rooms? Also why are they nice, imported brown stone but the chimneys are grey local stone?
Expand the scriptorium to the upper floors of the southern wing. They really need light to work, so the library/room with the table surrounded by bookshelves is virtually unusable. You could improve the light situation by expanding the scriptorium to occupy the second floor as well. Having libraries/scriptorium above the ground floor is the most effective way to keep books safe from damp and flooding.
In the place of the dark library bit, you could have a porter's lodge or something with an arrow slit through to the entrance way.
If the eastern wing ground floor room is a body washing place, put a stranger's symbol or something cos otherwise it looks like a medicine room, herbal tea making spot or otherwise.
Why are there stools in the dark in the masters bedroom? Also use the design of the scriptorium desks for the masters desk. It shows some more consistency and looks better with the hoppers, while also not seeming so much like a shelf.
Chests are overused in the masters apartments. There's other things the space could be used for, test around a bit.
Yet again, lift the main windows in the masters chambers up a block. they shouldn't be at the floor level. Also the whole point of moving the floor up and making it 2 blocks thick was so that you could put in nice carpets or interesting wooden floor patterns. This evidently didn't happen.
In the castle:
Use sand, not snow, for spilt flour. Snow looks like spilled salt more than white flour which ofc is a warm white, rather than a cool white colour.
Southern Drum - Don't use dark wattle and normal wattle in the same room for virtually the same function. the normal wattle looks better with jungle anyway.
The stone ceiling is v strange. either commit to a proper arched vault or make proper supports. A hopper and wall column isn't going to hold 9x9 of stone bricks. The rest of the ints are good.
Southern storage - Make sure there's some block variation in the roof. It doesn't all look good as basalt cobbles. Add some northern wood or bedrock
I'd put some windows on the servants quarters, even small tiny 1 1/4 stair holes to allow some air in. Its still the stormlands and it apparently gets v hot and humid in summer.
I think the wooden part of the staircase next to it could be a bit better executed. Maybe have a look around at a few constructions over the server to find some good examples. There might be some at the vikary mine or on the westbrook-uffering bridge.
Southern thin tower - now that is a vaulted ceiling in the bottom floor! thats nice. Good vibes. Anyway, I'm liking this tower but switch out the fancy table block in the barrack for a pot or endcrate + button. its too fancy with its parquet top.
Stables - these really need more ventilation. I know its wet and rainy but these would stink soooo much. Spread fresh straw on the ground to help soak up water. you don't want the animals getting hoof-rot, which the wet pebbles would only encourage.
Cellar - is fine
Forge - cool ints! I'd still add a window or two though. v hot.
Chicken coop - always good in a castle
.Guard's hall attached to tower - is good.
Eastern thin tower - don't like the room in between the guards hall and the wall walk. It should have a 2x2 table with more stuff on it and something in the opposite corner too. feel v empty and sterile. I don't think you need a big table at the very top of all of these towers, especially as they'd have to build it piece by piece handed up the ladder
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Its vaguely concerning that the fresh foodstuffs of the castle are stored in the building covered in fungi. but foodsafety wasn't so much of a thing so makes some sense.
The unused space between the timber shed and the manure pile could probably have grass there for the chickens to be let out into. Also I don't think next to the keep entrance is the best spot for a manure pile, despite the nickname "Greenshit".
In the Palas, don't have so many doors in the servants quarters. doors dividing stairs from rooms, sure. but they don't need 2 sets of double doors diving the plebs from other plebs. Or a plush velvet stool and parqueted table. Otherwise its alright.
In the keeps apartments, mb instead of having a 4 block line of dark wattle, put 2 braziers in the grate to make it look both a bit nicer, neater and more self contained. Alternatively, putting iron bars to form a grill 2-3 blocks long instead would also work. having a mix of the two depending on how big/how important the room is would work.
Servants having their own bedrooms in the attic of the keep is a bit weird. What would happen more often (shown beautifully in the film, The Favourite) is that they'd sleep in the same place to stay warm when its cold/for safety/sense of community. Only higher ranked servants like head house keepers (think Mrs Hughes of Downton Abbey), butlers and so on had their own chambers, often in the anti-chamber of their lord/lady if they were a personal servant. If you wanted to though, have a shared workspace in the attic (the cleaver with veggies, laundry etc + tiny bedchambers only for sleeping, like Roman cubiculum. That's the other way.
Also I'm not a fan of the stone floor in the attic, especially considering its supported by a wooden ceiling. I'd rather see interesting ceiling patterns/cladding and wooden floors above.
I find the access to the drainage and the down pipes/chains really interesting and love that detail. Plus the private beach. If there's any points I can clarify in this wall of fb text let me know. I know its a lot at once.
If there's rationale behind some decisions that I'm just not seeing, share them! I'm always interesting by cool ideas and different ways of doing things.
I'll try and check back in at greenstone soon to make sure the fb has been addressed or resolved.
The unused space between the timber shed and the manure pile could probably have grass there for the chickens to be let out into. Also I don't think next to the keep entrance is the best spot for a manure pile, despite the nickname "Greenshit".
In the Palas, don't have so many doors in the servants quarters. doors dividing stairs from rooms, sure. but they don't need 2 sets of double doors diving the plebs from other plebs. Or a plush velvet stool and parqueted table. Otherwise its alright.
In the keeps apartments, mb instead of having a 4 block line of dark wattle, put 2 braziers in the grate to make it look both a bit nicer, neater and more self contained. Alternatively, putting iron bars to form a grill 2-3 blocks long instead would also work. having a mix of the two depending on how big/how important the room is would work.
Servants having their own bedrooms in the attic of the keep is a bit weird. What would happen more often (shown beautifully in the film, The Favourite) is that they'd sleep in the same place to stay warm when its cold/for safety/sense of community. Only higher ranked servants like head house keepers (think Mrs Hughes of Downton Abbey), butlers and so on had their own chambers, often in the anti-chamber of their lord/lady if they were a personal servant. If you wanted to though, have a shared workspace in the attic (the cleaver with veggies, laundry etc + tiny bedchambers only for sleeping, like Roman cubiculum. That's the other way.
Also I'm not a fan of the stone floor in the attic, especially considering its supported by a wooden ceiling. I'd rather see interesting ceiling patterns/cladding and wooden floors above.
I find the access to the drainage and the down pipes/chains really interesting and love that detail. Plus the private beach. If there's any points I can clarify in this wall of fb text let me know. I know its a lot at once.
If there's rationale behind some decisions that I'm just not seeing, share them! I'm always interesting by cool ideas and different ways of doing things.
I'll try and check back in at greenstone soon to make sure the fb has been addressed or resolved.
Jeffjunior77
Bookbinder
Margaery_Tyrell
The Dark Lord Sauron
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Ill run through the last check of houses when I can. Gotta pretty busy schedule atm