Wall Castle Renaissance Update Thread

[Batelgause]

I'm pretty okay with the current shape and location of the bridge , however , there is a piece of canon that makes me think about westwatch's location and i wanna ask the community about their opinions .

So , our current westwatch stands right at the southern exit of the bridge of skulls but in this particular bit of canon called "Fight at the bridge of skulls" which happens during ASoS it is said "The fight at the Bridge of Skulls[2] is a costly victory for the Night's Watch over wildlings during the conflict beyond the Wall. It is fought ON the Bridge of Skulls and near the Gorge."

This makes me think that if the castle was right at the bridge why would the watchmen leave the fortified advantageous position of the castle to face the wildlings on the bridge ? i've come up with 2 possible answers . It is either the gatehouse was heavily damaged that the watchmen had no choice but fighting the wildlings off or the castle doesnt stand right on the bridge but somewhere near (preferrably on a defendible position to the east) that the watchmen tried a suprise attack on wildlings and failed .

So depending on which explonation we find more reasonable , we should either make the gatehouse in a bad condition or we suggest to move the castle a bit to the east . What do you guys think ?

 

[IronGentleGiant]

the gatehouse was heavily damaged that the watchmen had no choice but fighting the wildlings off

I like this answer. Many of the walls' castles are ancient and most are in a decrepit state. The gatehouse may be so damaged that it is barely even a gatehouse, just a shattered hulk of a barely recognizable structure. Still strong enough to create a natural choke point on one side of the bridge.

(Btw there are apparently two possible locations for Westwatch according to the wiki. An idea and suggestion is maybe two extremely ruined gatehouses on both sides of the Bridge of Skulls)

As for the bridge of skulls, the description of it sounds to me like that of a natural bridge, narrow, but wide enough for maybe 3 to 4 troops to cross shoulder to shoulder. Its prolly very windy up on that bridge when crossing the gorge and the narrowness would keep advancing groups of wildlings or watchmen from maneuvering effectively to combat each other which could lead to high casualty rates during battle. It's prolly called the Bridge of Skulls for the amount of costly battles fought in the past to defend it from the Wildlings and possibly has a few dozen impaled skeletons or skulls on pikes of wildlings along it. Another reasoning for a natural bridge on a gorge is well the Gorges de l'Ardèche which has a natural bridge, the Pont d'Arc, as the opening to the gorge on the river Ardèche.

Oh and here's a drawing of it from the GoT collectible card game:

 

[Rexstop15]

Perhaps we also need to discuss the position of the castle, because our dear GRRM contradicts himself in the maps of A Dance with Dragons and The Lands of Ice and Fire. A Dance with Dragons places Westwatch north of the Gorge and west of the Wall. The Lands of Ice and Fire depicts Westwatch south of the Gorge and just east of the Bridge of Skulls, where the Wall ends.

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I don't know if there's already an established consensus on the final position of the castle on the server, but if not, it is probably worth discussing this too.

 

[Finn01]

Perhaps we also need to discuss the position of the castle, because our dear GRRM contradicts himself in the maps of A Dance with Dragons and The Lands of Ice and Fire. A Dance with Dragons places Westwatch north of the Gorge and west of the Wall. The Lands of Ice and Fire depicts Westwatch south of the Gorge and just east of the Bridge of Skulls, where the Wall ends.

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View attachment 16985

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I don't know if there's already an established consensus on the final position of the castle on the server, but if not, it is probably worth discussing this too.

Maybe its worth having ruins of the castle on both sides? in lieu of GRRM being a bit forgetful. Unless we think that Dance takes precedent over Lands as that book is just an appendix - not a proper book within the series.

 

[Die Wursttheke]

Im not a big fan of having much structure on the other side of the wall. I cant proov it tho. This bridge is the onliest structure who leads above and into the upper north. Maybe they even were attacked when building the wall and castles. By Wildlings or Creatures from the other Side. Im sure they did not liked it haha. A Bridge like this is already a huge dangerous thing to construct and build in such a position. When they than get attacked, its nearly impossible to build only a "gatehouse"on the other side. First you would build defensive Structure wide enough around it to farm safe stones, flatten the ground and build the rest towards the bridge. In these days youve builded the bridge mostly from both sides into each other.
- all that causes to a bigger structure on the other side himself (realistic) what would be a bit weird for the overall look imo. This defensive structure is than not like other wall castles who lay on the side of the 7 Kingdoms

 

[Batelgause]

Maybe its worth having ruins of the castle on both sides? in lieu of GRRM being a bit forgetful. Unless we think that Dance takes precedent over Lands as that book is just an appendix - not a proper book within the series.

yeah i dont think there is much room left to move the castle is so i'm leaning to the ruined gatehouses idea too

 

[Finn01]

I imagine, given the description that Westwatch is ruined but still acts a natural chokepoint, maybe the Watch decided to knock down the northern gatehouse (leaving only some cobbles and bits of ruin on that side - to be used to block up the southern gate.

It could be that the gateway on the southern side has been cobbled back up so as to block it completely.

 

[DutchGuard]

I think the language "on the bridge" does not necessarily exclude a defensible gatehouse. Wildlings could be on the bridge and watchmen shooting down at them and I think this could still be described as a battle on the bridge. That or it could have been a desperate Helms Deep style charge to scatter the wildlings and knock them over the side into the gorge.

As for whether it is a natural bridge or not, that's a matter of aesthetic preference, though one could argue it is depicted as a natural bridge in the semi-canon Lands of Ice and Fire.

Personally I think all the man made construction should be exclusively south of the Wall as this is the configuration along the rest of its length and keeping that divide between civilisation and wilderness is core to its symbolic meaning.

 

[Deiniol]

It wasn't the Watchmen's explicit intention to fight at the Bridge of Skulls when they set out from Castle Black. Instead, it was a response to raiding parties along the Wall which lead them westward. Therefore, it is possible they arrived to Westwatch too late to take up a strategic/fortified position, and instead they had to push the Wildlings back from the courtyard/gatehouse and across the Bridge.

 

[Batelgause]

so Cash , what do you think about it ? we're waiting for your verdict to start testing lol

 

[IMajic]

Just a note from knowing the cannon about the shadow tower.

I am pretty sure that the Nightwatch do not use westwatch to garrison.


The people who fought on the bridge itself are from the shadow tower as it is a garrisoned castle to its east, meaning that westwatch is most likely a pile of ruin. maybe able to be fixed with time, manpower and supplies, that the watch does not have.
So the castle and gate are broken or ruined however and they would use the bridge as a natural chokepoint to hold.

The picture that rex sent, is that cannon or fan art? make sure to check its reference as there is so much fan art and artwork that is very cool but might not be cannon

Edit
I also think the wall should continue closer to Westwatch and come up almost to the gorge since right now it still feels like you could go climb around between west watch and shadow tower thus also kind of keeping both known cannons closer together by using it to be behind the wall and to be on the bridge itself.
Looking at west watch as an angle it would be behind the wall still.

I also do not think the gorge is deep enough, since you can clearly see the water line standing on the bridge barely looking down.
I think the land should have been lifted up both sides and the river to have gorged through. similar to how the artwork is. maybe some ideas to think about, also not sure how far west the haunted forest goes seen on the cannon artwork but would make sense that it grows up to the gorge giving the wildlife the chance to launch surprise attacks.

 

[Batelgause]

Just a note from knowing the cannon about the shadow tower.

I am pretty sure that the Nightwatch do not use westwatch to garrison.


The people who fought on the bridge itself are from the shadow tower as it is a garrisoned castle to its east, meaning that westwatch is most likely a pile of ruin. maybe able to be fixed with time, manpower and supplies, that the watch does not have.
So the castle and gate are broken or ruined however and they would use the bridge as a natural chokepoint to hold.

The picture that rex sent, is that cannon or fan art? make sure to check its reference as there is so much fan art and artwork that is very cool but might not be cannon

Edit
I also think the wall should continue closer to Westwatch and come up almost to the gorge since right now it still feels like you could go climb around between west watch and shadow tower thus also kind of keeping both known cannons closer together by using it to be behind the wall and to be on the bridge itself.
Looking at west watch as an angle it would be behind the wall still.

I also do not think the gorge is deep enough, since you can clearly see the water line standing on the bridge barely looking down.
I think the land should have been lifted up both sides and the river to have gorged through. similar to how the artwork is. maybe some ideas to think about, also not sure how far west the haunted forest goes seen on the cannon artwork but would make sense that it grows up to the gorge giving the wildlife the chance to launch surprise attacks.

so making the castle mostly ruined should be the way to go ?

 

[CashBanks]

Oh right, yeah I’m fine for you to make a start with testing. I agree that Westwatch isn’t garrisoned, perhaps it’s slightly less ruined but still abandoned. Agree we could try the idea for a ruined gatehouse on the north side of the bridge. Happy for the bridge to stay a natural land bridge, probably room to naturalise it a bit more (I.e less symmetrical/artificial looking).

 

[IMajic]

so making the castle mostly ruined should be the way to go ?

yes I think so.
not much cannon about west-watch itself. most of the cannon is about the bridge.
The shadow tower men probably do not station at the castle since the nights watch say they only garrison 3 castles. So they would use the bridge as the defending point.

so it is up to you to decide how ruined west watch is since this is not stated.

Westwatch-by-the-Bridge
I think the castle is by the bridge, maybe not on the bridge ? so maybe also think about that, how it's positioned.

Could include things like :-
keeping supplies in a covered area then sitting out in the open.
A place to keep warm from the cold winds.
A place to cook food.

This castle wouldn't be used for long periods or not at all since they live at the shadow tower itself.
maybe rangers have 'shifts' ? where they are stationed to defend the bridge and scout out for possible attacks and excursions that cross the bridge ?


If you look at the cannon about the bridge of skulls you can find some interesting bits mentioned like rocks all around the bottom of the gorge that are not there in our gorge. other details could also be included that we do not have, as well as doing a wildling camp to the north similar to the things that Otty is doing north of the wall.

 

[Renly_Baratheon_]

I was just looking at the map and was thinking that there are not really any waterways south of the wall. Since there is regular snowfall and we know that the wall "weeps", the water has to go somewhere. Is there a plan for some streams that go to the sea to be added?

I was also thinking that in terms of geography, some parts south of the wall on the Western side would most likely have been part of the milkwater catchment area, since the wall was built as a straight line and seems to not adhere to geography. Therefore, it would be interesting to have a lake by the wall on the southside (aka deeplake) that only filled up because the wall was built over the path the river originally took. This would mean that there should be a sort of empty river valley that connects to the milkwater and that the lake goes right up to the wall. I suppose that would also mean that there should be a new riverbed that goes from the lake to the sea somehow. I don't know if there is any canon about rivers or streams by the wall. The wiki says about the last river that it originates from a number of streams from the northern mountains. I guess if that river from deeplake went into the last river that would still make sense with that. This is a quick sketch I made. Just to show what I mean. Not necessarily saying it should actually be done like that.

 

[Finn01]

I was just looking at the map and was thinking that there are not really any waterways south of the wall. Since there is regular snowfall and we know that the wall "weeps", the water has to go somewhere. Is there a plan for some streams that go to the sea to be added?

I was also thinking that in terms of geography, some parts south of the wall on the Western side would most likely have been part of the milkwater catchment area, since the wall was built as a straight line and seems to not adhere to geography. Therefore, it would be interesting to have a lake by the wall on the southside (aka deeplake) that only filled up because the wall was built over the path the river originally took. This would mean that there should be a sort of empty river valley that connects to the milkwater and that the lake goes right up to the wall. I suppose that would also mean that there should be a new riverbed that goes from the lake to the sea somehow. I don't know if there is any canon about rivers or streams by the wall. The wiki says about the last river that it originates from a number of streams from the northern mountains. I guess if that river from deeplake went into the last river that would still make sense with that. This is a quick sketch I made. Just to show what I mean. Not necessarily saying it should actually be done like that.

View attachment 17264

There are canonically, no rivers north of the Last River. Hence its name. You could have better representations of rainwater affecting the landscape, but no rivers. Maybe some small streams? that flow into the Last River could be good to maintain canon.

And as for Deeplake, iirc the lake is supposed to be on the northern side of the Wall.

 

[AerioOndos]

there are bogs south of the wall in the gift, and the land slopes downwards steadily to the east. hence why Eastwatch should be mostly flat. Also unforested. Also nothing can flow through from the gift to the last river because there's a line of hills there that the kingsroad winds through on its way north. It doesn't run in a straight line between the Long Lake and the Gift

 

[Renly_Baratheon_]

I figured no rivers north of the last river just means that none of the more northern ones are really that big/navigable. But there should be streams and creeks imo.

My bad, I forgot that the lake is getting moved to the north of the wall.

The hills north of the last river end at the kingsroad on the map in the books. They don't necessarily have to continue further. Having the water from the northernmost foothils of the northern mountains drain into the last river would not contradict canon on the last river either. Also currently the kingsroad just cuts through those hills, which to me looked like a spot where a river or stream would have eroded the hills away.

I'm not super familiar with the geography of bogs but wouldn't there still be at least creaks going into it? Especcially all the valleys between the hills along the wall seem really strange to me without any kind of runoff.

Maybe this is different in other climates but when I go out for a walk in the woods, there are small riverbeds, streams and creeks everywhere, when the terrain goes lower than the surrounding terrain.

 

[Endymion]

Shadow Tower revamp by AlexIsTragic, Endymion and Gawain

The Shadow Tower was originally made by Endymion and IMajic in late 2018. The original application can be found here.

Canon

The Shadow Tower is one of three castles along the Wall that are still inhabited by the Night's Watch. It is located next to mountains at the western end of the Wall. It lies west of Sentinel Stand and east of Westwatch-by-the-Bridge, both abandoned castles. It is commanded by Ser Denys Mallister and its maester is Mullin.

Two hundred men of the watch were stationed in the Shadow Tower. In its heyday, the Shadow Tower could accommodate up to 3000 men. The current occupation has further decreased as one hundred men have left the Shadow Tower to reenforce Castle Black's main force at the Fist of First Men. In addition, a small contingent has gone on an expedition to Lorn point.​

Free folk sometimes descend into the Gorge to bypass the Shadow Tower.

Canon Issues
As seen above the Shadow Tower only has general canon descriptors, therefor no major inconsistencies have been found. Nothing notable added in ADWD or Fire & Blood.

Structural improvements
We have expanded the facilities of the Shadow Tower to better reflect the size of its occupancy, both in present times and during its heyday. We also added facilities that were lacking in the current structure and would be found in general (wall) castles. Some of the layout has been redone to be more interconnecting with each other.

• Added new and bigger main hall
• Added more recreational spaces
• Added sept
• Added separate rookery
• Added additional sleeping halls
• Added carpenters hall
• Added smithy
• Added armories throughout the castle
• Expanded prison facilities
• Added infirmary
• Added new main kitchen
• Added Bakery
• Expanded kitchen
• Expanded lifestock stables
• Added additional storage cellars
• Relocated and expanded granary
• Stepwell added as described in canon of other wall castles
• Crane added to connect above ground to below ground
• Crane added on the wall as described in canon of other wall castles
• Modified the layout of the top of the wall to reflect its military function.

Cosmetic improvements
Updated the appearance of the Shadow Tower to better fit new standards.

• General update to palette with new blocks (slabs, stairs, walls)
• Added secondary palette
• Updated snow gradients on roofs and ground
• Added more realistic snow piling
• Updated paths with new blocks and improved gradient
• Updated natural elements near the Shadow Tower
• Refined snow staining on the wall and ice melt
• Updated interiors

The Shadow Tower test can be found at /warp wallupdate.

 

[CashBanks]

Plotting to refresh Oakenshield as my next Wall castle update. Before locking in plans I'm curious to get thoughts on these older Wall castle gradients.

This is the current Oakenshield gradient, it feels a bit like the basalt/bedrock base mix doesn't quite blend with the northern cobble smoothly. I'm wondering if it's worth just swapping out the basalt/bedrock completely, or if there's any ideas for a better way to blend it in?