Sunspear/Dorne Redo Discussion Megathread

[Kor_Bro]

Some delicious terraforming along the western Dorne, in the red mountains: Like the Algerian mountains, yumyum!

 

[AerioOndos]

Along the western edge, sure something drier like that Kor but in the mountains some hella cool stuff like this Pyrenean stuff but with a red hue


Also, the Princes Pass/Wide Way should be made into two valleys with a pass connecting them, meaning we could have Skyreach in one of these valleys, kings grave on a valley/plateau that connects to the northern one and shift get rid of the weird westward dogleg so that it begins with znightsong at the head of the journey, not Darkdell.

also, the princes pass needs to be made greener as it needs to be able to support 10,000 men for at least a year encamped within it.

 

[Azulejo]

Eastern Dorne inspo
As pointed by Margaery, East Dorne is mostly dry, stony soil ill-suited for agriculture. Some regions I think could be useful for this are Los Monegros and Las Bardenas Reales in Northeastern Spain, Desierto de Tabernas in Southeastern Spain, South Morocco, Northern Iraq, Palestine (which George R.R. Martin said was inspirational when creating Dorne), Algeria, Eastern Crete... The Ebro Valley I think is a great inspo for the Greenblood, since is decently sized river that goes throught a dry, semiarid region.
​

Spoiler: Dry landscapes

Google Maps panoramics

• Greece, Eastern Crete
• Iraq, Northern Iraq
• Israel, Southern desert
• Libya, Western Libya
• Morocco, Rif
• Morocco, Rif coast
• Morocco, near Marrakech
• Morocco, river Draa
• Oman, near Muscat
• Saudi Arabia Northern desert
• Somalia, Northern Somalia
• Spain, near Ebro river
• Spain, view of the Ebro river form the drylands
• Spain, Desierto de Tabernas
• Spain, Desierto de Tabernas
• Spain, Bardenas Reales
• Spain, Bardenas Reales
• Spain, coast of Almería
• Spain, Almería
• Spain, Northern Granada
• Tunis, Southern Tunis
• Tunis, Southern Tunis

There's a wide variety of landscapes, from more barren to lightly "wooded". I also added some gorges and ouadis that could be doted throught the region.

 

[Antony]

Greece, Eastern Crete

Ant approves.

 

[Agonizes]

On the topic of the town of Mahdia, almost nothing of its fortifications remain exept for an impressive gatehouse that also has an attached bazaar, a covered market, called 'skifa el kahla'. It was recently restored and is walkable with google maps!

 

[Azulejo]

Mahdia reconstruction by Jean Claude Golvin! For the walls of Sunspear Granada and the Alhambra, Córdoba, Sevilla, Almería, Fes, Marrakech, Niebla, Toledo, Meknes, Salé, Rabat, Oran, Algiers, Tunis, Sousse, Kairouan, Sfax, Bizerte... are great sources of inspiration.​

 

[Jakethesnake8_8]

A dried-up desert river wash. Giving you very much Arizona vibes

https://imgur.com/a/v9Yf1Vj

 

[FD001__]

I noticed that the city and castle of Sunspear sits on a promontory, with a strait separating it from the Water Gardens/other small settlements. This is quite similar to the positioning of Constantinople.



Left: Constantinople/Istanbul. Right: Sunspear.

I also made a little map of how I imagine the 'real life' parallels between areas:



Blue: French.
Green: Spanish/Greek
Red: Turkish/Arab
Grey: Whatever the Stormlands is.

 

[Azulejo]

Mmmm, personally i think the whole of Dorne could use the Iberian Peninsula as inspiration, just different regions and times. The Torrentine and the other two northern rivers (forgot the name) as well as the valleys in between could be mid to north Iberia (always below the Pyrenees and the Cantabrian Mountains). This makes sense to me as canonically this area was the least affected by the Rhoynar migration, thus their culture and style resemble more that of the rest of the continent. Since is generally agreed that rhoynish style is similar to arab/islamic, is logical that the area of Dorne with the least influence of them resembles that of Iberia with limited arab traces.

The rest of Dorne then would be arab Iberia. So not current, but how it looked back then, in al-Andalus. Sometimes people tend to "over-orientalize" Dorne (not talking about you specifically Finn) and forget that is a region with a strong Andal and First Men past, just that it received a third wave of peoples that further increased the mix. That's why I think Arab Iberia (which is not the same as southern Iberia) is such a good fit. Also we are still in Westeros, there's no need to divert the local style to an extreme.

Of course this are just general guidelines, and more regions around the world could be used to further enrich the dornish style, and to not make it a copy of, in this case, Iberia. For example and in my opinion more notably Northwestern Africa (the Maghreb), which would provide alternative arab styles to that of al-Andalus and most importantly inspiration for the south west of Dorne, where the true deserts and sand dunes are located, according to canon. That been said I personally dont like the bereber mud architecture for Dorne, like Ait Ben Haddou. To me thats almost ghiscari, but I recognize this might be a more unpopular opinion. I'd stick to more simple designs (mud is fine tho, mud is love, look Marrakech or Baños de la Encina).

Also, Dorne is one of the only regions, as far as I know, where we are given a detailed subdivision of the cultures that shape it, and I don't think this is remembered enough. Salty, Sandy and Stony Dornishmen are distinct enough to have their one names (the division is less intense between Salty and Sandy, that being said). Some really interesting things could be done with this info.​

 

[CashBanks]

Thanks for sharing those thoughts Finn, great to see some conversation on this.

Constantinople would be an interesting influence worth considering, particularly its role as a trade hub.

Regarding the broader Dornish terrain, I think for the sake of completing projects in the area that demonstrate a realistic degree of agricultural production we'll need to tone down the desert/arid influence so we don't have wheat fields contrasting right next to yellow desert.

I like how Marg has greenified the area around the Tor and would imagine that the lands at least along the Greenblood would look similar in style.

 

[AerioOndos]

Another point which Azulejo highlighted is that Dorne is actually not meant to be entirely a big sandy desert. The deep desert with dunes is between the Hellholt, Sandstone, Vaith and the southern exit of the Princes Pass/Wide Way. Most of Dorne would be a desert closer to those in Spain and potentially parts of the Magreb. This might be me reading too much into the use of 'Arab' in your key, Finn.

I'd like to make is expanding on the orientalising of Dorne which is done, even a bit by GRRM themselves. While using the east is great, Al Andalus and the moorish imprint left on Spain gives us far more of a blend into the roughly French Reach than Asia Minor can. imo Turkey, the Levant and Middle East should be saved for a hypothetical Volantis, Slavers Bay and Qarth.

 

[Azulejo]

Most of Dorne would be a desert closer to those in Spain and potentially parts of the Magreb.

we'll need to tone down the desert/arid influence

In my mind eastern Dorne would be able to sustain a very precarious goat transhumance and not much more (obviously that would not be the case of the rivers or coasts).​

 

[FD001__]

Mmmm, personally i think the whole of Dorne could use the Iberian Peninsula as inspiration, just different regions and times. The Torrentine and the other two northern rivers (forgot the name) as well as the valleys in between could be mid to north Iberia (always below the Pyrenees and the Cantabrian Mountains). This makes sense to me as canonically this area was the least affected by the Rhoynar migration, thus their culture and style resemble more that of the rest of the continent. Since is generally agreed that rhoynish style is similar to arab/islamic, is logical that the area of Dorne with the least influence of them resembles that of Iberia with limited arab traces.

The rest of Dorne then would be arab Iberia. So not current, but how it looked back then, in al-Andalus. Sometimes people tend to "over-orientalize" Dorne (not talking about you specifically Finn) and forget that is a region with a strong Andal and First Men past, just that it received a third wave of peoples that further increased the mix. That's why I think Arab Iberia (which is not the same as southern Iberia) is such a good fit. Also we are still in Westeros, there's no need to divert the local style to an extreme.

Of course this are just general guidelines, and more regions around the world could be used to further enrich the dornish style, and to not make it a copy of, in this case, Iberia. For example and in my opinion more notably Northwestern Africa (the Maghreb), which would provide alternative arab styles to that of al-Andalus and most importantly inspiration for the south west of Dorne, where the true deserts and sand dunes are located, according to canon. That been said I personally dont like the bereber mud architecture for Dorne, like Ait Ben Haddou. To me thats almost ghiscari, but I recognize this might be a more unpopular opinion. I'd stick to more simple designs (mud is fine tho, mud is love, look Marrakech or Baños de la Encina).

Also, Dorne is one of the only regions, as far as I know, where we are given a detailed subdivision of the cultures that shape it, and I don't think this is remembered enough. Salty, Sandy and Stony Dornishmen are distinct enough to have their one names (the division is less intense between Salty and Sandy, that being said) Some really interesting things could be done with this info.​

To be honest, I always thought there were some parallels between how Dorne used to have a strong Andal/First Men presence, and how most of Anatolia was formerly Greek/Armenian - with the Rhoynish coming in similarly to how the Turks came into Anatolia. It would be interesting to see places like the Tor and the areas around the Dornish Marches have the Spanish/Greek vibe they have currently - with that Spanish/Greek vibe slowly eroding as you move further east to where areas like Sunspear is like Arab Iberia.

It might be cool to show little parts of the Andal past in certain locations - like how there's an old village near Baelor's (I think?) in server that was subsumed by King's Landing over time. We could have a really Moorish looking town/city, then with some little houses or a sept that looks out of place.

Personally I prefer the Greek/Turkish analogy, but it doesn't really matter anyway because this is a fantasy server lmao. It just helps to have a stylistic idea for all of us I suppose.

 

[FD001__]

Another point which Azulejo highlighted is that Dorne is actually not meant to be entirely a big sandy desert. The deep desert with dunes is between the Hellholt, Sandstone, Vaith and the southern exit of the Princes Pass/Wide Way. Most of Dorne would be a desert closer to those in Spain and potentially parts of the Magreb. This might be me reading too much into the use of 'Arab' in your key, Finn.

I'd like to make is expanding on the orientalising of Dorne which is done, even a bit by GRRM themselves. While using the east is great, Al Andalus and the moorish imprint left on Spain gives us far more of a blend into the roughly French Reach than Asia Minor can. imo Turkey, the Levant and Middle East should be saved for a hypothetical Volantis, Slavers Bay and Qarth.

Yeah, I should've probably just used Moorish/Islamic - I used Arab as a catch-all term.

The major settlements in western/northern Dorne as well coastal settlements to the north (such as the Tor) felt Spanish/Greek to me because irl the Greek population in Anatolia held on as a majority in certain coastal locations for a very long time, up until the 1900s. But I get it now that we think that Dorne should be more like Iberia, then it would make sense for places like Yronwood and Wyl to be like Northern Spain - afaik projects such as Lonmouthtown have that vibe already so it seems sensible - then the interior and eastern parts of Dorne should be islamic in character - although I'm not sure which parts of Spain have would fit that.

Azulejo probably knows more about this than I do.

 

[Azulejo]

To be honest, I always thought there were some parallels between how Dorne used to have a strong Andal/First Men presence, and how most of Anatolia was formerly Greek/Armenian - with the Rhoynish coming in similarly to how the Turks came into Anatolia. It would be interesting to see places like the Tor and the areas around the Dornish Marches have the Spanish/Greek vibe they have currently - with that Spanish/Greek vibe slowly eroding as you move further east to where areas like Sunspear is like Arab Iberia.

It might be cool to show little parts of the Andal past in certain locations - like how there's an old village near Baelor's (I think?) in server that was subsumed by King's Landing over time. We could have a really Moorish looking town/city, then with some little houses or a sept that looks out of place.

Personally I prefer the Greek/Turkish analogy, but it doesn't really matter anyway because this is a fantasy server lmao. It just helps to have a stylistic idea for all of us I suppose.

Thats and interesting take on the matter if I'm honest, I can see the parallels. At the end of the day we're talking about a book series where each one of us imagines the world the series takes place combining the given information with the references one has. I personally imagined Pentos and Myr being the more greek/turkish looking areas in ASOIAF, Pentos being the greek one and Myr being the turkish one, but then again that's just me. I think everything can be incorporated to a degree, specially if we want it to become unique, blending influences is the best bet

Yeah, I should've probably just used Moorish/Islamic - I used Arab as a catch-all term.

Arab is not wrong, at the end of the day arabs where the leaders and the elite that established in Iberia, and their culture was the one considered more refined and the one that was promoted for the most part. Iberia was arab. Moorish is a term used to defind arab influenced Maghreb and Iberia (and maybe Sicily? I'm not sure). If I'm honest it was turkish of all the vibes you mentioned the one that bugged me more, but seeing how you came to that conclusion I can see it and I respect it.

although I'm not sure which parts of Spain have would fit that.

Mmmmm, is hard because is we go with a Islamic Iberia aproach we should take into account that it was long ago when that was a thing, and even though very obvious traces exist and the culture is highly influenced between 1200 and 500 years have past since the last islamic state, depending on the area. It's just like if I want to make an ancient roman city, I wont be looking at current day Rome, I'd search how it was back then and what remains.

That's being very technical, at the end of the day is not hard finding remains of muslim Iberia. Type arab/muslim/islamic and the name of a city of the southern half of Iberia and you most likely would find something. Cities with a still strong arab feeling are Toledo, Córdoba, Granada, Sevilla, and many many more smaller towns in Andalucía, Aragón, Algarve, Comunitat Valenciana, Región de Murcia, Extremadura, Castilla-La Mancha or Alentejo.



Hope this rough drawing helps to visualize how I see the possible dornish inspirations.

 

[Azulejo]

Some Greenblood inspo I've been collecting! In general I would advise to stay away from the Nile (even thought I myself used some pics here from Egypt) as it goes through a proper desert, unlike the Greenblood that goes through dryplains, and ends near a lightly wooded area, as a deeper lecture on canon suggests.

A lush and irrigated enviroment full of trees and densely populated, contrasting with the drier and way less populated east Dorne. Lazy tip: if you want an area to feel andalusian/muslim Iberia just add this three trees: date palms, cypress and orange trees. If anything I would tone done the number of palm trees a bit and add more vegetation similar to this on the banks, a more even proportion, specially since date palms are most likely an introduced plant. It's just hard finding that type of images online.


Somewhere in Murcia, southeastern Spain.


First pic is on the Palmeral de Elche, a big date palm orchard that surrounds the city of Elche/Elx, Comunitat Valenciana, Spain. Second pic is also from the Comunitat Valenciana. Those houses are barracas, a type of house used by the farmers at the irrigated areas. They're postmedieval, I mainly link that image because of the landscape where they are.


Huerta de Murcia, Spain. A big irrigated area in the valley of the river Segura, next to the city of Murcia, that can be seen at the back. The castle at the front is the Castillo de Monteagudo, a former muslim castle and palace, now with a big Christ statue on top. This is an old pic, as today the area is much more built-up.


Ricote, Murcia, Spain. An area upstream of the pic before. I think this types of cliffs and more rugged terrain would be a better fit for either the Vaith or the Scourge (in my mind the area next to the Greenblood is flatter), but I like the contrast between irrigated and non irrigated.


To the left a canal near the river Nile. Something like this would be awesome in the Greenblood plain. To the right a drawing of an alquería, a type of settlement in al-Ándalus, a mixture between a farm/estate and a hamlet. The style of the houses isn't the best but it does the work.


Vega de Tudela on the River Ebro, Navarra, Spain. Bahr Yussef, canal that feeds the Faiyum oasis in Egypt. Unlike the Greenblood, houses would be probably built quite close to this canals as their water level is controled.


Ebro valley near Utebo, Aragón. I personally love how the fields contrast with the cliffs at the border. This is how I imagine the Greenblood area transitioning into the dry Eastern Dorne.​

 

[Azulejo]

Estate at the Greenblood (estate or almunia at the outskirts of Córdoba, 10th century)


Look of the banks of the river Guadalquivir during the 10th century. Atop near Córdoba, at the bottom in a rural area. I can translate to anyone that needs to.


Fauna and flora of the river Guadalquivir, inspo for the Greenblood banks.


Different views of the river banks of the Guadalquivir.

One thing though, the Guadalquivir is a river that goes mainly through a fertile plain with lots of rainfed crops. That I think should not be used as inspo, as the Greenblood fertile area seems more constricted to the irrigated area and outside it there's little cultivated area. For that look at the Ebro river or at the Nile for an extreme example.

​

Aereal view of the Ebro valley. Unlike the river Guadalquivir, the Ebro goes through a dryplain area, and outside the irrigated lands there's few cultives (mainly rainfed but way less productive than those of the Guadalquivir) and grazing lands.

 

[DutchGuard]

I love all of this Azu. I think our best option would be a Greenblood megabuild including Vaith, Godsgrace, Lemonwood, and the extinct houses of Dorne. It would be the only way we could get good consistent terra along the river.

 

[Rexstop15]

Azu you are a beast ma man

 

[Nikas Kunitz]

I actually had thoughts about Dorne for quite a some time and as I can see discussants here have quite alike thoughts too, so I will write my suggestions for Dorne too. As I'm not such a great specialiast on Mediterranean and Desertal cultures, my suggestions maybe not entirely correct, but I hope they will be of some use anyway.
First of all, I want to talk about natural environment. I totally support making canon-accord stony desert of Eastern Dorne in contrast to sandy desert of Central Dorne. Being in line with suggestions above I think that this desert shouldn't be just a barren land, but should have some vegetation as well. The most defining aspect of Eastern Dorne's environment in my view is that it is very seasonal, with distinct dry and wet seasons (aligned with uneven seasons of the Planetos, I think the dry season can fall onto summers, while wet season onto winters, akin general seasons in real Mediterranean). During the wet season, wet air masses go to Dorne from the region of Summer sea directly south of Narrow Sea. In this sea region, Tropical cyclones are orginiating (Stepstones archipelago itself is famous for being stormy). The wet air masses fly over Eastern Dorne giving some rain (and occasionaly storms), but mostly they are catched by uplands north of Greenblood basin, as well by uplands where Scourge and Vaith are originating. Here, in these uplands, wet air masses turn into rains, that make the uplands quite green all the time, but especially during wet seasons, when rain fallen in these uplands turns into numerous small streams going downhill to feed Greenblood and its tributaries, significantly raising its water level. As such, during wet seasons, the stony desert of Eastern Dorne mostly turns in quite habitable, green lands, while being dry land during dry seasons, when all the numerous small streams are dry rivercourses as well and rain is scarce. (This is different from sandy desert of Central Dorne, where rains are much rarer and unregular, because Summer sea south of this part of Dorne is quite still all the time). As such I propose making uplands, first of all, eastern slopes, where Scourge and Vaith are originating, generally greener, as due to elevation, even scarce wet air is catched here even during dry seasons, and that feeds Scourge and Vaith all the time, through the two (and Greenblood as well) are quite small rivers during dry season, in contrast to being real rivers during wet season. Also, I think that Stepstones, Broken Arm and strip of coast from Greenblood mouth to Spottswood (so, including Sunspear) should be not deserts, but generally mediterranean coastline, quite green even during dry season, covered a lot by farms and orchards, supporting towns of Plankywood and Shadowtown with fruits and livestock, while grain comes mostly from irrigated Greenblood valley.
As our timeline is somewhere in early autumn, I think general Eastern Dorne landscape shoul be dominated by dry lands, rowed by dry watercourses of streams from uplands feeding Greenblood during wet season, with dry-sustainable vegetation here and where, while the coastal area from Lemonwood to Spottswood, alongside with Broken Arm and Stepstones, should have pretty Mediterranean landscape, like the Tor coast.
Now, to more cultural and historical aspects. As it is evident in canon, prior to Rhoynar arrival, Dorne was dominated mainly by lords based in "greener", less season-affected lands, like Yronwood and the Tor, while Jordaynes of Godsgrace sustained on all the yield that Greenblood basin could give by "primitive" farming. Martells, based on eastern coast of Dorne, quite green (as I suggested above) were self-sustained as minor lords, but couldn't be anything more with such small economical powerbase. The arrival of Rhoynars brought not only centralised force, by alliance with which Martells became the major house, but important technologies as well. Just like Romans and Arabs brought their aqueducts and norias to Spain, Rhoynars brought advanced irrigation and water-management techniques from their homeland basin of Rhoyne. These technologies, alongside with general population influx, enabled to turn Greenblood into a much more productive agricultural area, with rational irrigation, utilising river's overflow during wet seasons, as well as making farms and orchards in coastal strip around Sunspear (and in Eastern Dorne in general) much more productive. This turned previously backward Eastern Dornish lands into a far more prosperous lands. Increased agricultural yields and proximity to Essos for trade, sparkled the growth of large settlements and towns in Eastern Dornish coast. All of these served as effective socio-economical powerbase of Martells and their immediate vassals, so the house of Nymeros Martell was able to keep its dominant position in Dorne for all the centuries, taking revenge on all the houses who mocked them in earlier days.
As such, cultural landscape should consist of following: as Azulejo suggested, the lower Greenblood valley is dominated by irrigational works, channels and reservoirs, mainly for produce of grain in my opinion (wheat and barley, but maybe even rice as well), with multiple villages along the river and Planky Town in its mouth; eastern Dorne coast should be dotted by villages with orchards and farms (with livestock!) with Sunspear agglomeration as main settlement, while inner, drier regions of Eastern Dorne should have small villages here and where, with inhabitants waiting wet season for starting agricultural works and mainly grazing small cattle until then.
P.S. Why Martin hadn't named Greenblood as [new] Little Rhoyne, this name could fit it so much.