Approved Southeastern Vale Megabuild (Wickenden, Ruthermont, Redfort, Runestone/Gulltown Peninsula) by Emoticone11

[Bovine]

Good catch!

The little canon that exists on House Shett and their location is pretty confusing. I based the current position of the Gull Tower on the "semi-canon" quote given in the wiki. I just did a little more digging and it seems like this is extrapolated from a So Spake Martin entry:


(Typical GRRM justification...)

From what I've pieced together, the story with the Shetts goes something like the following:

1. Prior to the Andal invasion, the Shetts rule Gulltown as the Kings of the True Men, and wage intermittent war with the Bronze Kings of House Royce.

2. Under Osgood III Shett, the Shetts lost land to the Royces under King Yorwyck VI Royce and were pushed within the town walls.

3. Following the Andal invasion, the Shetts ally with the Andals in order to reclaim their land; Osgood III converts to the Faith and marries off his daughter to Gerold Grafton to seal the pact.

4. The Shetts and Graftons are victorious against the Royces, but Osgood III is killed in battle.

5. The remaining Shetts are betrayed by the Graftons; Gerold takes control of the city and Osgood III's heir is dispossessed.

6. At some point in the future, when King Robar II Royce rallied the First Men houses to fight against the Andals, his sister convinced the remaining Shetts to ally with them and rebel against the Graftons.

7. The Shetts allowed Robar's men to storm the city, which they ostensibly held for a short time.

8. However, after the decisive Andal victory at the Battle of the Seven Stars, the Shetts and Royces (what was left of them) both bent the knee to Artys I Arryn. Control of Gulltown was given back to the Graftons.

If the Shetts splintered into two surviving branches at some point, this would presumably have happened between events 4 and 6, where (at least some of) the Shetts formed an allegiance with the Royces. But the books aren't really clear about whether these are two surviving branches, or if one of the two is extinct.

Even if we go with the two branches interpretation, I think it's difficult to extrapolate a location for the branches just based on their allegiences. A lot of these allegiences were formed as a result of alliances during the Andal invasion; this also explains, for instance, why House Coldwater are vassals of the Royces despite being located all the way in the Fingers. In my opinion, it makes most sense to keep the Gull Tower inside of Gulltown due to this being the original historical seat of House Shett (as well as the canon that they were at one point pushed within the town walls), while the splinter branch sworn to the Royces would only come much later in the story (and would still have considerable control within Gulltown, given that they were able to open the gates for Robar's men). It's possible that both of the branches are within (or near) the city, and one (Damon Shett?) has control of the Gull Tower and the other (Uther Shett?) is a landed knight with some estate within (or near) Gulltown

works for me

The only thing I have trouble understanding is why house Shett is listed as bannermen to Yohn Royce. (see recent events, AFFC, https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Coldwater, strangely this information is not in the house Shett wiki) If this is accurate it seems too strange to have a vassel within the city of a rival lord, which would also suggest the Shetts would be able to raise a levy out of and tax a portion of the population of Gulltown which also seems strange. Would there be smallfolk within the city who have to serve them instead of the Graftons? (Actually to this point wouldn't a city have special rights to have the population exempt from conscription through the charter or something?) As I write this it occurred to me that perhaps a higher lord supports Gull Tower financially in exchange for their service to the city?

I can see the argument that this may be an oversite in canon and your explanation is reasonable if that is the case, and to tell you the truth I don't think it would be a very big deal if we swept this under the rug as such.

It's too bad GRRM doesn't put as much thought into the logistics of feudal obligations as we do lol.

 

[EStoop]

It's likely house Shett of the Gull Tower owns lands near Gulltown and spends their winters residing in a manse in the city. During the middle ages (and after), it wasn't uncommon for noble and patrician families to own estates outside of the city while residing in the city for either business, pleasure or both. Given the history of the city and the surrounding lands, it's not unlikely house Royce controls lands close to Gulltown itself.

A city operates differently under feudalism than other holdings of a lord (they are actually not part of feudalism at all). Citizens are not subjects of the lord, while peasants are. As a result, they are free to move where they please and pay taxes to the city rather than the lord. They are responsible for their own defences, wereas a lord is responsible for the defence of his other subjects.

Granting town/city rights to a settlement basically relieves a lord of it's obligations towards his vassals living there, and transferring those obligations to the settlement itself. The lord gives up his control over the settlement, but can in turn benefit of the economic growth brought by the settlement, as well as taxes and/or a one-time payment (depending on the contract).

Regarding the Gulltown Shetts, they may as well be in the same position but at the other side of the border, or they actually reside inside the city. Maybe their lands are incorperated within the city walls, making them a feudal overlord of a neighbourhood in or right beside Gulltown people would consider to be part of the city, but in reality is not. Or they are just iving in the city as patricians much like the Gulltown Arryns.

 

[FD001__]

It's likely house Shett of the Gull Tower owns lands near Gulltown and spends their winters residing in a manse in the city. During the middle ages (and after), it wasn't uncommon for noble and patrician families to own estates outside of the city while residing in the city for either business, pleasure or both. Given the history of the city and the surrounding lands, it's not unlikely house Royce controls lands close to Gulltown itself.

A city operates differently under feudalism than other holdings of a lord (they are actually not part of feudalism at all). Citizens are not subjects of the lord, while peasants are. As a result, they are free to move where they please and pay taxes to the city rather than the lord. They are responsible for their own defences, wereas a lord is responsible for the defence of his other subjects.

Granting town/city rights to a settlement basically relieves a lord of it's obligations towards his vassals living there, and transferring those obligations to the settlement itself. The lord gives up his control over the settlement, but can in turn benefit of the economic growth brought by the settlement, as well as taxes and/or a one-time payment (depending on the contract).

Regarding the Gulltown Shetts, they may as well be in the same position but at the other side of the border, or they actually reside inside the city. Maybe their lands are incorperated within the city walls, making them a feudal overlord of a neighbourhood in or right beside Gulltown people would consider to be part of the city, but in reality is not. Or they are just iving in the city as patricians much like the Gulltown Arryns.

The city has expanded past previous feudal boundaries then just as in real life? The Gulltower Shetts were probably originally outside of the city/town when the Andals invaded, but over the centuries the Gulltower was subsumed and is now a landmark. Like how Galata (which also had its own tower) in Istanbul originally had nothing to do with medieval Constantinople, but when the city expanded across the Golden Horn under the Ottomans Galata became part of Istanbul.

We could place Gulltower on the large spur shielding the harbour and acting as a natural breakwater - originally across the bay from Gulltown, and now part of it as the city has expanded around and across the bay. I believe Emote's plans had some sprawl around that area along that large main spur. The Gulltown Shetts are probably just patricians who live in the city - similar to Gulltown Arryns.



This is a quick mock-up of what I think the boundaries could work like:

Red: Current boundaries of what is considered Gulltown.
Yellow: Older boundaries of Gulltown.
White: Shett controlled, straddles the boundaries between Gulltown and Royce lands.
Black: Grafton controlled.
Orange: Royce controlled.

I think Gulltower would be better off somewhere on the southernmost spur, near where a lighthouse is planned (next to the small rock), so that they're within that Shett part of the city. The Shett lands outside belong to the Shetts of Gulltown.

The Shetts sworn to the Royces control the land outside Gulltown, whereas the Shetts within Gulltown are a House in their own right.

This is very confusing tbf hahah.

 

[AerioOndos]

I'd honestly love the Gull tower to be within the city itself, kinda like the idea that Howy had for Whitehead in weeping town. A fortress within the city but not a huge one, with the city growing around it.
Could this be done? With the external lands on the southern spur what they have remaining after the Grafton coup.

 

[Emoticone11]

Great map, Finn! Sketching out the zones of expansion will be quite important to have in the server build planning stages, since apart from figuring out the location of the Shetts, it will help with planning substyles from different eras, historical structures and fortifications, etc.

We talked about this briefly in-game, but I'm still going to push for the Gull Tower being located within the original boundaries of Gulltown due to the piece of canon about the Shetts being pushed within town walls under Osgood III. This would imply that either the Gull Tower was taken at some point and the Shetts temporarily dispossessed, or the Gull Tower isn't actually the historical seat of the Shetts, or (what seems to be the more parsimonious explanation) their seat was located within the original walls.

 

[Jakethesnake8_8]

Hey Emot!
Just thought I’d come on here and bring the discussion of terrainset to the table. After some research and perusing a wiki of ice and fire, I’ve found what I believe to be solid proof that the Vale does not have white stone as presumed.

Firstly, in the Vale chapter The World of Ice and Fire, it says the Vale is a “Long wide fertile valley entirely ringed by the great grey-green peaks.” I’ve discussed this with several people and they’ve brought the conclusion that this may be due to moss and lichen. However, I don’t believe moss and lichen could accumulate in such a high quantity, at such an altitude and to an extent where white stone becomes grey-green. There is also the interpretation that the peaks are grey-green, the grey referring to the stone and the green referring to trees. However, it says the mountains are bleak and inhospitable, so trees growing that high is unlikely. The main takeaway from this passage is that the stone is at least some shade of grey.
Next we have the fact that Roland I, who built much of The Eyrie, did not like the stone that is available in the Vale, so he ships in white blue-veined marble from Tarth. It stands to reason that the stone in the Vale wouldn’t be a similar colour, otherwise he’d have used that instead of shipping costly marble.
We also should take into account that the Eyrie is noted for its 7 pale towers standing out against the scenery. This implies the stone doesn’t appear pale.
Lastly, Alyssa’s tears are described as “a shining silver thread, bright against the dark stone.” This can be explained as the stone perhaps just being wet, but even then, wet white stone is not dark.
It is also worth noting there is no canon that I can find that indicates the Mountains of the Moon or the Vale at all is composed of white rock.


Here are the potential solutions.
1) Change the terrain set to something grey-green or grey. This would be the most canon-accurate option, but might be a bit of a pain to do.
2) Have only the peaks be grey-green and have stratified mountains with the white stone appearing every so often, so as to get the best of both worlds. This bends canon a bit to our will.
3) Ignore George and his silly canon

Ideally, option 1) would be the best, as it’s most canon-accurate.
Hopefully this all makes sense, hoping COVID hasn’t rendered my writing illegible lol
Best,

- Jake

 

[Emoticone11]

Hey Jake,

Personally I'm inclined to take option (3) whenever it comes to niche canon that appears to contradict a major direction we've taken with the project. I think we have to accept that, at the end of the day, we're a creative fan adaptation and thus will take certain liberties with our interpretations, although we make reasonable efforts to stay as close to the canon as possible. With the Vale in particular, I'd surmise that GRRM had the Rocky Mountains in mind (given his descriptions of grey-green peaks and aspens), whereas we've taken the region to be inspired by the Alps instead. But I don't think we should rack our brains trying to read GRRM's mind with every detail, and it's not like he even has a super consistent vision with his worldbuilding.

All that said, mossses and lichens are some of the hardiest species on the planet (as they derive all their nutrients from the atmosphere), and can grow pretty much anywhere, including extremely high altitudes. The highest-altitude plant life is a species of moss that grows on the peaks of Mount Everest, IIRC. So I don't think it's implausible that mosses/lichens grow at a high enough quantity to create visible green patches on the peaks of the mountains. Tham already added some green hues to the terrainset CTM to represent lichen (granted, it's not as noticable from a distance).

Regarding the other options you mentioned:
(1) is pretty much a non-starter, as the MoTM terrainset is used elsewhere, as are the corresponding pebble blocks.
(2) could be interesting to try in some spots (and it's not like the whole Vale needs to have the exact same stone composition). In the terrainset update we switched from a "one terrainset per region" mentality to treating the terrainsets as representing different types of stone that could be put together in different ways, so it's certainly possible to have some of the peaks be darker stone with lighter striations. You see this in the Alps as well. However, it might be difficult to pull off such a color transition, so I wouldn't try to force it.

 

[FD001__]

Hey Jake,

Personally I'm inclined to take option (3) whenever it comes to niche canon that appears to contradict a major direction we've taken with the project. I think we have to accept that, at the end of the day, we're a creative fan adaptation and thus will take certain liberties with our interpretations, although we make reasonable efforts to stay as close to the canon as possible. With the Vale in particular, I'd surmise that GRRM had the Rocky Mountains in mind (given his descriptions of grey-green peaks and aspens), whereas we've taken the region to be inspired by the Alps instead. But I don't think we should rack our brains trying to read GRRM's mind with every detail, and it's not like he even has a super consistent vision with his worldbuilding.

All that said, mossses and lichens are some of the hardiest species on the planet (as they derive all their nutrients from the atmosphere), and can grow pretty much anywhere, including extremely high altitudes. The highest-altitude plant life is a species of moss that grows on the peaks of Mount Everest, IIRC. So I don't think it's implausible that mosses/lichens grow at a high enough quantity to create visible green patches on the peaks of the mountains. Tham already added some green hues to the terrainset CTM to represent lichen (granted, it's not as noticable from a distance).

Regarding the other options you mentioned:
(1) is pretty much a non-starter, as the MoTM terrainset is used elsewhere, as are the corresponding pebble blocks.
(2) could be interesting to try in some spots (and it's not like the whole Vale needs to have the exact same stone composition). In the terrainset update we switched from a "one terrainset per region" mentality to treating the terrainsets as representing different types of stone that could be put together in different ways, so it's certainly possible to have some of the peaks be darker stone with lighter striations. You see this in the Alps as well. However, it might be difficult to pull off such a color transition, so I wouldn't try to force it.

I would like to see more usage of NorthTS in the Vale - since Witch Isle uses it as well as Pebble iirc. Would be cool to see some mountains/formations around the northern coast have NorthTS.

If anyone is into geology, I found a geological map of Westeros and western Essos too. Got it from the website of a scientist called Miles Traer, if anyone is interested just look it up (see attached). Map seems fairly accurate in its estimations (limestone deposits around White Harbor, etc) but doesn't have to be gospel for our server. Also a video on the subject of geology (1hr if anyone is bored).

Basically, he says that its likely that the Bite is the meeting point between a northern Westerosi tectonic plate and a southern one (similar to other mountain ranges) and the two plates have met in a way that has pushed the northern plate below the southern, and the southern has pushed up creating the Mountains of the Moon. On the southern side of the plate, we can assume the high plateau mentioned here is probs the Vale of Arryn proper (in our case more of a glacial valley) behind MoTM.

We could have northern stone around the north coast of the Vale around Newkeep, as we already use it at the Sisters too, as well as certain spots around the MoTM as volcanic hotspots that have poked through. Volcanic rock could also be prevalent around areas such as the Grafton penisula (idk the real name) as I assume there has been volcanic activity across the eastern coast of Westeros (Dragonstone).

 

[AerioOndos]

Points of volcanic activity throughout Westeros are quite scattered. We know of one in Dorne, the North, the Crownlands and the Vale (?) as well as two Beyond the Wall. Otherwise, we don't get much mention of volcanoes. In the past 8 thousand years there has only been 1 event that could possibly be a volcanic eruption on the continent (Hardhome cataclysm).
Dragonstone is almost certainly a hotspot as we have Driftmark elongates towards Dragonstone, as some of the hawaiian islands did as the hotspot shifted.
The Brimstone and Winterfell seem pretty stationary. However, in the Mountains of the Moon there is the possibility of Nettles/Sheep Stealers' Cave they lived in post-Dance would be near or on top of volcanic activity (I'd presume Sheepstealer would want to settle somewhere warm). With the huge tectonic stresses to form the Range, it'd make sense for at least one or two volcanoes to occur. However, these are probably out of the way higher in the mountains as Nettles interacted with the Burned Ones mountain clan that Timmett son of Timett is a part of.

 

[FD001__]

Points of volcanic activity throughout Westeros are quite scattered. We know of one in Dorne, the North, the Crownlands and the Vale (?) as well as two Beyond the Wall. Otherwise, we don't get much mention of volcanoes. In the past 8 thousand years there has only been 1 event that could possibly be a volcanic eruption on the continent (Hardhome cataclysm).
Dragonstone is almost certainly a hotspot as we have Driftmark elongates towards Dragonstone, as some of the hawaiian islands did as the hotspot shifted.
The Brimstone and Winterfell seem pretty stationary. However, in the Mountains of the Moon there is the possibility of Nettles/Sheep Stealers' Cave they lived in post-Dance would be near or on top of volcanic activity (I'd presume Sheepstealer would want to settle somewhere warm). With the huge tectonic stresses to form the Range, it'd make sense for at least one or two volcanoes to occur. However, these are probably out of the way higher in the mountains as Nettles interacted with the Burned Ones mountain clan that Timmett son of Timett is a part of.

A lot of the volcanic activity is particularly dormant ofc - with the exception of Dragonstone. When I referred to volcanic activity, it was more in terms of hot springs/geysers/certain formations etc. There's hot springs near one of the mountain clans as well Aek, I think at Knott?

I imagine that the volcanic activity present in the North from Winterfell to the mountain clans makes sense, since those mountains would probs be mainly basalt/or other forms of volcanic rock.

 

[AerioOndos]

What I didn't have time to type was that gulltown peninsula is probably all glacier carved materials without volcanic activity. Imo it's what's left of the southern wall of the Vale of Aren't after a huge glacier carved it out. The lateral and terminal morraines forming part of the strata.

Yeah, there's evidence to suggest volcanic activity in the northern mountains and that's the basis of Knotts hot springs. But the Knott hotsprings aren't canon, just a huge granite upthrust. Also the Gorne's Way hotsprings existence mean there could be more or similar features in other parts of the cave system (which likely exits in the foothills of the northern mountains. However, were talking about the Vale. Which hasn't had a volcanic eruption or significant tectonic event in 6k years. Darker stone, sure. But not hotsprings or basalt plugs.

Imo the narrowsea is a continental rift, neither coastline works with subduction or lifting due to collision. This would allow pressure that would otherwise create hotspots to vent, making it less likely for cracklaw point, Massey's hook and Gulltown peninsula to have volcanic activity.

I love your thinking about these details Finn and how you're keeping track of how they could effect the environment, but GT probably isn't the place for volcanism. There are better spots to go full for it.

 

[FD001__]

What I didn't have time to type was that gulltown peninsula is probably all glacier carved materials without volcanic activity. Imo it's what's left of the southern wall of the Vale of Aren't after a huge glacier carved it out. The lateral and terminal morraines forming part of the strata.

Yeah, there's evidence to suggest volcanic activity in the northern mountains and that's the basis of Knotts hot springs. But the Knott hotsprings aren't canon, just a huge granite upthrust. Also the Gorne's Way hotsprings existence mean there could be more or similar features in other parts of the cave system (which likely exits in the foothills of the northern mountains. However, were talking about the Vale. Which hasn't had a volcanic eruption or significant tectonic event in 6k years. Darker stone, sure. But not hotsprings or basalt plugs.

Imo the narrowsea is a continental rift, neither coastline works with subduction or lifting due to collision. This would allow pressure that would otherwise create hotspots to vent, making it less likely for cracklaw point, Massey's hook and Gulltown peninsula to have volcanic activity.

I love your thinking about these details Finn and how you're keeping track of how they could effect the environment, but GT probably isn't the place for volcanism. There are better spots to go full for it.

Yeah, you're right. I'm not sure what the darker stone would be however if not volcanic/igneous rock, but I suppose Emote is busy figuring this stuff out lol.

 

[Deiniol]

Sedimentary rocks can also be a dark grey colour, like some limestones or greywackes. Especially if the rock has been weathered. If the rocks at Alyssa's Tears are grey already, water spray from the waterfall would also darken the rock.

 

[Emoticone11]

7/15/23 Update

I'm happy to announce that, after about a year of efforts, I've completed the terraforming base for the Ruthermont project - roughly corresponding to steps 1-4 in the project workflow (see Section 1.5).

As such, I'm ready to open Ruthermont for applications. Please see below for some rules/guidelines:

• The project will be treated as a full solo project, meaning that the usual rules apply with respect to the project leader(s). Additionally, I expect to be closely involved in the creative decisions of the project - and potentially building if time allows - so consider the project as effectively a co-op with me. As the megabuild leader, I will retain the final say on decisions within the project.
• If you're interested in testing, please make sure to read Section 3 of my megabuild application in full. At a minimum, I expect tests for the castle and house styles, and detailed plans for the villages/hamlets in the project. If you have different ideas, feel free to propose them in your application - I'm open to suggestions.
• The area of Gerold's Glen will be off-limits for the project; the terra there is incomplete and I aim to finish that area myself when I get to that point.
• If a long enough time passes without any demonstrated interest in application, I may begin to build parts of the project myself, as time allows.

Feel free to contact me if you're interested and/or have any questions!

Here are the anticipated next steps of the megabuild:

Due to considerations around the impending 1.18 update temporarily impacting terraforming, I've shifted around my priorities a bit. Before doing forests and detailing the terrain at Ruthermont, I will likely press forward with the heavier terraforming efforts around Redfort, beginning with completing the base for the mountain pass and the areas to the south of the project.

During this process, I may remove some of the completed areas of Redfort, backing up any important builds. Do not worry, I plan to keep the overall terrain and planning mostly the same as it is currently, but with some updating to ensure continuity with the newer areas.

In order to keep a cohesive style, I will likely only apply the finishing touches to the terrain (i.e. terrainsets, grass, etc.) once the full Ruthermont + Redfort area has been completed.