Completed Ghost Hill - by Margaery Tyrell

Margaery_Tyrell

The Dark Lord Sauron
Immersion Project

Builders: Margaery

Coords: 7242, y , 23636

Ghost Hill Town Proper

Research/Inspiration/Plans

This thread is intended for transparency and to indicate our plans for the GH town. This was prompted by discussions about Tor-GH terra as I had already had terra in the GH sprawl region and was planning on extending it throughout the entire coast this was consulted with the original build lead of Ghost Hill (SMP). At the behest of the original build lead of GH (SMP) he suggested I also ask to update the town and asked a moderator (Emote) for permission which I received. There is already current work at GH, but it has been requested that a thread be created for the update.

So basically our general direction with the update is keeping as much of the former town as possible while bringing it to the standards of today. All of the houses in town are either updated or added, and if the positioning of them was awkward they were moved around until they fitted. The only houses that got removed where those at the port area, where more intense repositioning had to be taken. The interiors of the houses, however, have been completely removed, as they're far from what we're used to today, due to the heavy use of logs, lack of many decor blocks at the time and quite thick walls in many of the houses (2 or even 3 blocks thick). The streets have been tightened to match urban planning in cities of the south Mediterranean, where very narrow streets are planned to provide shade under the harsh sun, among other cultural reasons. Diagonal plots have also been added, as a lack of them can easily show the age of a project. We're also planning on blending the outskirts of the city more into the countryside, so no visible seems can be spotted. That would also mean lightly updating the buidlings at the Ghost Hill countryside Inmersion project, which were done intentionally in an older style, so they did not outdated the town.

Unlike the houses the main sights of the town have been completely redo, as we considered them key in portraying the new style that the town has taken. Both the red temple and the sept are already done, while the caravanserai is on the works. This last building was, in our perspective, one of the most important aspects of the update. We wanted to keep it but reducing its size, since it was almost a quarter of the old town, dwarfing it considerably.

As the inspiration of our update, as well as the former town, we chose coastal towns and settlements around the Mediterranean, mainly Algeria, Tunisia, South Spain (Andalucía) and, occasionally, Greece. We thought all this areas matched nicely what was done in old Ghost Hill as well as the general style direction Dorne has been taken lately.

Terrain around town is been reworked as to match canon regarding the hill where the castle sits

Aegon had more success, but other than the brief siege at Yronwood, where he was opposed by a handful of old men, boys, and women, he found little opposition. Even Skyreach, the great seat of the Fowlers, was abandoned. At Ghost Hill, the seat of House Toland atop the white chalk hill that overlooks the Sea of Dorne, Aegon saw the banner bearing the Toland ghost flying above the walls and received word that Lord Toland had sent out his champion to face him. Aegon slew the man with his sword, Blackfyre, only to learn that he was Lord Toland's mad fool and that Lord Toland himself was gone with his household from the castle. In later days, the Tolands would take a new banner, showing a dragon biting its own tail, green on gold in memory of the motley of their brave fool.

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Emoticone11

The Dark Lord Sauron
Staff member
I approve of the update, though I have some feedback based on what's there so far:

- I'm a bit worried about some of the style becoming too visually busy. We talked about this a bit in-game already, but the plaster palettes need to be cleaned up. Ordinary houses should only use at most 3 plaster types IMO, and I'd be very careful with mixing warm-hued plaster types with cool-hued plaster types (i.e., have two or more styles of houses with warm or cool plaster types, but don't mix them together in the same house). Here's an example of a house where the warm-hued and cold-hued plasters contrast pretty harshly and it doesn't look great. While I understand that using only a couple plaster types can look boring, (a) if we revamp the plaster textures/CTM in the future, it will age more gracefully and will require less manual updating, and (b) it fits better with the WesterosCraft maxim of "tasteful simplicity", which nearly always tends to age better than messier styles. I think the previous version of Ghost Hill did palettes pretty well, which is why it aged gracefully - no need to radically reinvent it IMO.

- I'm not sure about the newer section of houses being added around the caravanserai. It feels rather unnecessary and I fear that the densely arranged diagonal layouts won't translate very well to the Ghost Hill style (I disagree with the notion that a project needs diagonal houses to seem up to date, but that's neither here nor there). I'd suggest instead maybe having some sort of moorish gardens around the caravanserai, with the caravanserai visible from the docks below through some trees (a couple houses closer to the main road can work).

- What are the broader implications of the (unfortunately missed) canon about the chalk hill? Are you planning on going back along the coast and adding some limestone deposits elsewhere?
 

Margaery_Tyrell

The Dark Lord Sauron
The plaster can be cleaned up no problem.

"I'd suggest instead maybe having some sort of moorish gardens around the caravanserai, with the caravanserai visible from the docks below through some trees (a couple houses closer to the main road can work)."

Perhaps we can have bits of both? The caravanserai isn't necessarily in a wealthy enough area to support an ornamental garden, but there could be an edible community garden arranged in the same way

"- What are the broader implications of the (unfortunately missed) canon about the chalk hill? Are you planning on going back along the coast and adding some limestone deposits elsewhere?"

centered around the castle primarily and some of the cliffs by the harbor, theres an example already by the harbor with dorne terrainset on top.
 

RavishMeRed

Printmaker
Staff member
Pronouns
he/him
I'm currently having a slight issue with this update. Not with any plans or style, although I agree with Emote that some of the stylistic choices present on some houses are becoming visually busy. I'm having an issue with the fact that this immersion was applied for by 1 person and 1 person only and the work is being distributed throughout several builders who haven't publicly been brought to forum attention. In my honest opinion, this defeats the purpose of an application entirely, as the project has essentially been co-signed off to other people. This is a game, and we do it for fun, and I hope this doesn't cause drama. I'm essentially just shedding the light on a situation that may or may not have been known to other people.
 

Margaery_Tyrell

The Dark Lord Sauron
I'm having an issue with the fact that this immersion was applied for by 1 person and 1 person only and the work is being distributed throughout several builders who haven't publicly been brought to forum attention. In my honest opinion, this defeats the purpose of an application entirely, as the project has essentially been co-signed off to other people.

I understand your concerns about the direction of the project but I haven't given it off to the two builders who have been the most ammount of help so far.

I have been at length and constant communication with Azulejo and Gawain777 who I have intimately communicating what I want to be done in my absence since I have been busy with personal affairs outside of the internet. I plan on returning a bit more this week to get caught up with things I have to work on (ints, palletes, ext details, vegetation etc.) and on opening up plots
 

Azulejo

Firemage
Staff member
Both Gawain and I were asked if we wanted to be credited/mentioned in the application post and we both decided individually that we didn't want to, for different reasons. Looking back at it, despite our thoughts it might have been wiser to do so. As Marge said, everything we've done so far has been previously talked with her so it follows what she had planned for the town. In any case, we are very thankful for the trust Marge has deposited on us and our work while she is absent.

The way Gawain and I jumped into the update was quite spontaneous and causal, progresivelly doing more involved work before we realized we were pretty much collabing with Marge (though she and her view were always the lead). It is only fair that for those who aren't aware on how/why this happened we acknwoledge our participation on the update.​
 
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FD001__

Both Gawain and I were asked if we wanted to be credited/mentioned in the application post and we both decided individually that we didn't want to, for different reasons. Looking back at it, despite our thoughts it might have been wiser to do so. As Marge said, everything we've done so far has been previously talked with her so it follows what she had planned for the town. In any case, we are very thankful for the trust Marge has deposited on us and our work while she is absent.

The way Gawain and I jumped into the update was quite spontaneous and causal, progresivelly doing more involved work before we realized we were pretty much collabing with Marge (though she and her view were always the lead). It is only fair that for those who aren't aware on how/why this happened we acknwoledge our participation on the update.​
This is very interesting to read now.

I did see this earlier, and I believed that since Marge was absent Gawain and Azul were acting on her behalf while she was absent. That is why I had asked Azul for permission to do some small interiors at Ghost Hill - two cave houses and a normal house. This permission was granted by Azul, so I assumed that this would be okay with Marge. Evidently it wasn't due to the reaction I've received today.

I will say something. I don't appreciate the way that this has been dealt with, and the tone that I was spoken to earlier in game about 'my ego' and other things about not following rules; as well as trying to 'guilt' people into letting me do things. I believe complaining about not following rules is quite ironic considering the ad hoc and unofficial nature of the update. I don't have any ego whatsoever - I just want to enjoy myself on a cool server that's about something I like.

I will still apologise for not having properly asked Marge for permission.

Hopefully we can leave this at that and move on. Not trying to escalate it further, just thought that it would be worthwhile posting this.
 

Margaery_Tyrell

The Dark Lord Sauron
This is very interesting to read now.

I did see this earlier, and I believed that since Marge was absent Gawain and Azul were acting on her behalf while she was absent. That is why I had asked Azul for permission to do some small interiors at Ghost Hill - two cave houses and a normal house. This permission was granted by Azul, so I assumed that this would be okay with Marge. Evidently it wasn't due to the reaction I've received today.

I will say something. I don't appreciate the way that this has been dealt with, and the tone that I was spoken to earlier in game about 'my ego' and other things about not following rules; as well as trying to 'guilt' people into letting me do things. I believe complaining about not following rules is quite ironic considering the ad hoc and unofficial nature of the update. I don't have any ego whatsoever - I just want to enjoy myself on a cool server that's about something I like.

I will still apologise for not having properly asked Marge for permission.

Hopefully we can leave this at that and move on. Not trying to escalate it further, just thought that it would be worthwhile posting this.

I thought we did leave the discussion over and unescalated when all parties agreed on the server that it was? Especially when it was agreed with a mod present that it was an issue of miscommunication and assumption.

As previously discussed the plots that you built at were not even labelled with professions or class and not open to build at (as indicated by the initial post on this thread but also several inquiries done in server chat as well as the giant looming towers of "WIP" blocks over every single building), as previously stated in this thread that they would be announced to be open when properly labelled and ready to be built at. As previously discussed you disregarded this, did not ask the build lead in any capacity for status or permission to build and went right ahead with building to your leisure by asking two builders that while intimately involved with the building and planning, did not have final say with what was being built or planned for those plots. As previously discussed you didn't even bother with leaving a block indicating that you built in two of the three plots you contributed towards.

As previously discussed every other builder who has contributed to this project has had at one point or another either asked me directly or indirectly for permission to contribute and have had no issues with this matter.

I greatly appreciate bringing up this subject (again, for some reason), but do make sure you always refer to the project lead next time, that's always the ruling voice of a project and some other builders might not know exactly what's going on or the exact expectations of the project lead. On my part I'm sorry I didn't make myself more clear beyond this forum post, several chats in server and the one post preceding this one that the plots aren't open yet.
 
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DutchGuard

Shadowbinder
Staff member
Pronouns
he/him
This particular scenario aside, I would like to put here plainly that unless a plot is explicitly marked as being open (using a plot sign, other pre-defined marker, or an open invitation to build on the forums or discord) that no one, including mods, but the project lead(s) can allow you to build there. The project lead is the author of the approved project application on the forums.

At the end of the day it is up to the builder to decide wether or not they wish to contribute to a project, and it is up to them to resolve any doubt that they are permitted to build or risk their contribution being removed by the project lead.

That said, regardless of permission, the project lead has the final say on any contributions and can remove or alter any part of their build at any time.
 
F

FD001__

This particular scenario aside, I would like to put here plainly that unless a plot is explicitly marked as being open (using a plot sign, other pre-defined marker, or an open invitation to build on the forums or discord) that no one, including mods, but the project lead(s) can allow you to build there. The project lead is the author of the approved project application on the forums.

At the end of the day it is up to the builder to decide wether or not they wish to contribute to a project, and it is up to them to resolve any doubt that they are permitted to build or risk their contribution being removed by the project lead.

That said, regardless of permission, the project lead has the final say on any contributions and can remove or alter any part of their build at any time.
Wasn't aware of this - my bad.
 
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DutchGuard

Shadowbinder
Staff member
Pronouns
he/him
No worries, to be fair it isn't spelled out anywhere in those words exactly. As this conversation appears to now have evolved into a personal matter, I would prefer that the two of you message each other privately. Feel free to involve me or another moderator if you would like.
 
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FD001__

No worries, to be fair it isn't spelled out anywhere in those words exactly. As this conversation appears to now have evolved into a personal matter, I would prefer that the two of you message each other privately. Feel free to involve me or another moderator if you would like.
There's no matter, and I really don't feel like talking about it anymore.
 

Margaery_Tyrell

The Dark Lord Sauron
I'm not going to take this further, but I am slightly annoyed at being told to follow the rules by someone who didn't properly apply in the first place.

I've already apologised, and I'm not interested in the matter anymore.

I mean thats beside the point, the fact that rules were broken in the past and then rectified and fixed with the existence of this thread doesn’t excuse your disregard of them.

I understand that you were trying to have the final word here especially with dragging up issues are already solved in the server’s chat literally 20 minutes after discussing the matter but it is appreciated that you follow the rules next time.
 
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Margaery_Tyrell

The Dark Lord Sauron
Hi I would like to make a formal request to upgrade this project from a simple immersion update to a full update (including moving this thread to the official solo projects board). I am requesting that another mod in addition to Emoticone11 be added to post approve this project when complete. I am requesting this because the parameters of the project have expanded beyond just the town and in order to complete the terraforming/style done at GH town and The Tor, a much larger scope is necessary.

At the moment the town is at ~85% done with the only things left are houses in the bathouse district, warehouses at the harbor, cliff terra by the harbor, and the Toland's cave.

I had taken upon myself to update the immersion sprawls I had done previously as they were based off the former style of GH and it seem prudent to make sure everything matched up. At the sprawls there is 3 houses left, the manse and the sept to be completed and after that its done.

For my solo project update I would like to propose the following land claim for the solo project.

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In terms of terra, it would be a continuance of what has been already completed at The Tor and Ghost Hill, ending at where the Arm of Dorne begins (which necessitates a conversation in it of itself about landscape) completing the entirety of the Northern Dornish Coast. This will involve extending the greenbelt already made, with the greenbelt "drying out" as it gets closer to the end of the proposed vegetation. I will not be touching the interior deserts as those are subject to the hypothetical terra of Eastern Dorne to be more canon compliant.

I would also be completing the eastern most extent of the Saffron Road ending at the proposed vineyard and passing through a miniscule hamlet of 5-6 houses with subsistence agriculture, olives and fishing as their main economic activity.

The vineyard will be owned and managed by landed gentry with 2-3 houses for the workers, a residence for the vineyard owners(middle class), rows of grapevines, facilities to press and ferment the grapes into wine.

For the castle it's mostly a matter of updating the pallete, removing fence windows, while keeping the same silhouette, updating the ints.

Since the server needs more people to apply for minis, I am also going to make both the hamlet and the vineyard minis to be applied for.

Hopefully this can get a speedy response and we can finish off the Northern Dornish Coast once and for all
 

Ric

Ser
Staff member
Hey Marg!

Thanks for making this request. I'm glad you're aiming to finish the whole northern dornish coast, it will be nice to have another continuous region completed and up to date :)
I'm happy with your plans, you have my approval! Before you start updating it, please do save the current castle in test, if you haven't already.

Also, would be nice if you could add a road going into the desert representing the path Arianne took from Sunspear to Ghost Hill in WOW. You don't have to make it going all the way into the (to be replaced) sand dunes, but just making the portion that connects to the Saffron Road would be good I think.