Oldtown: Feedback and Suggestions

Ric

Ser
Staff member
Hello! I was just thinking, as we are in the process of planning Oldtown, it would be a good time to start thinking about what subjects would be studied at the citadel. Currently, and as far as I am aware, we have a few common faculties planned, like the a house of healing, with lecture halls etc. I personally feel this is probably quite important, as such a list of subjects would inspire what buildings we build (a master can’t learn ravenry without a place to study it!). So I did a little bit of research on the subject and compiled a list, including some of my own guesswork. By no means am I saying this is definitive, but I wanted to open up the conversation.

In the medieval period, the equivalent organisation would have been a university. Unlike today, all students studied the same courses, known as the seven liberal arts. This included the trivium (grammar, rhetoric, and logic) followed by the quadrivium (arithmetic, astronomy, geometry, and music). Following such studies, one could continue study in one of the higher faculties (theology, medicine, or canon (church) law). As the medieval period progressed, with increasing interest in antiquity, common studies came to include physics, metaphysics and moral philosophy.

CANON:
As you are probably aware, each link on a maester’s chain, represented a mastery of study. In book canon, there are 15 known link metals, of which only 6 have assigned studies. Being 21 archmaesters however, it may be assumed that there are 21 possible subjects. Note that ravenry, economics, medicine and whatever platinum represents are the most commonly studied subjects.

Known Links:
• black iron- ravenry
• bronze- histories (perhaps astronomy or astrology)
• yellow gold- economic mathematics
• iron- warcraft
• silver- medicine, healing and anatomy
• Valyrian steel- higher mysteries (magic)

Known Link Metals:
• steel
• tin
• pewter
• platinum
• red gold
• lead
• electrum
• copper
• brass

SEMI-CANON:
Other semi-canon sources assign studies to other link metals.

HBO Making of the Show
• copper- history
• bronze- astronomy
• steel- construction

The Measter’s Chain Special
• Lead- poison

RPG’s
• Bronze- astronomy
• Copper- history
• Electrum- astrology
• Pale steel- smithing

This list (even if we do include the semi-canon) unfortunately still leaves 5 known link metals incomplete, so I took the liberty to provide some suggestions for each, taking inspiration from what each metal symbolises.

• Tin represents the breath of life- metaphysics
• Pewter represents creation of toxicity- chemistry/pyromancy
• Platinum represents purity and endurance- arithmetic and geometry
• Red gold represents a rich intelligence- grammar
• Brass represent pure truth and judgement- moral philosophy/law

Again, if we assume each archmeaster is head of a study area, there are 5 more possible subjects. Some other faculties which I think would fit in include: weather (canon), theology (I know they have a troubled relationship with religion, but so too do they with magic), physical sciences, music or rhetoric (lack of arts), and diplomacy (as many maesters act as diplomats).

Thanks for reading!


Hey, I would like to contribute to the thread too: I think that platinum perhaps could be used for grammar, since (like you pointed out) that it's more common and I believe that all maesters shown so far know how to read and write (I may have forgotten an exeception tho).

Also, perhaps would make sense for a study area on geopolitics: which houses rule where, how much power they have, who are they sworn to, etc.
 

ContraBlonde

Prophet
S T A R R Y S E P T suggestion/test

Hello, I would first like to introduce myself as I am new to the community,

Although I cannot build or join your server because I am on bedrock edition, I have been very interested in this server (watching many of the Wetseroscraft Walks) ever since November when I became a fan of Game of Thrones. Over the course of these recent months I have learned more and more about the lore and am truly fascinated

I first got interested in Game of Thrones because as an architecture fan I learned about the Sept of Baelor and when I saw what happens to the beautiful building in season 6 ep 10 I wanted to watch the show

Even through I cannot build, I hope to contribute to a server I respect for its artistic quality and ambition

Here are some of my builds for yall to get a feel of my style and experience


With that being stated, I would like to suggest/add input/inspo to the Starry Sept

I have read the Oldtown main document so I understand the desired styles.


Here are some rules I followed in my build

-Must be gothic (in accordance with the guide document https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B87uz3K6xJM2QTQ2azJSQk96d1k/view , pg. 11) (originally I intended to use a Romanesque/Byzantine/Renaissance design)

-Must use black marble (following cannon)

-Must be seven sides (following Baelors in this respect) (since it is basically the equivalent to the Vatican)

-Would have less than seven towers as to not outdo Baelors (Two in this case)

-Must have a dome (following sept architecture, in contrast to traditional gothic styles)

Edit: Removed gothic revival and other architecture revivals from inspiration/reference as it conflicts with established server guides and time period

S E P T C O M P L E X

Artistic Liberties I suggest for the Sept Complex:

-Separate quarters for Septons and Septas

-Special Section for the Silent Sisters

-Special Section for Faith Militant and Warriors Sons

-Council Chamber, Seat of the Most devout where the High Septon was elected (Inspired by the Sistine Chapel and Papal Election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_conclave

-Seven Bell towers, most of which are different from each other to add to the chaos and history of the complex




NOTE!!!! THIS IS ONLY A DRAFT AND I BUILT IT SMALLER TO TEST THE DESIGN AND PALETTE

I understand if you would not like to use designs from Nobuilds, let alone someone who has never joined the server

Constructive feedback only please

PLEASE LOOK AT ALL IMAGES

I hope to contribute in a positive way to this server if you would accept

My sept draft, enjoy! :) https://imgur.com/a/LPLsvs5
 
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Enah

Skinchanger
This looks very similar to what I was doing, Aachenerdom is the main inspiration the leaders are wanting (baring neogothic avoid like the plague). also, your one temple inspired by Barcelona's Sagrada Familia looks more like the Mormon Temple in SLC

Also, the starry sept doesn't "have" to have a dome, no sept absolutely has to, it's only mentioned on Baelors. the rest probably have simpler rooves. A lot of your suggestions are thigns some of us already have suggested, like the "Septon Conclave" that General McNuggets and Kulmen29 were attemtping in earlier tests. Also, any traces of the Faith Militant would have been repurposed since they were destroyed almost three-hundred years ago.
 
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ContraBlonde

Prophet
This looks very similar to what I was doing, Aachenerdom is the main inspiration the leaders are wanting (baring neogothic avoid like the plague). also, your one temple inspired by Barcelona's Sagrada Familia looks more like the Mormon Temple in SLC

Also, the starry sept doesn't "have" to have a dome, no sept absolutely has to, it's only mentioned on Baelors. the rest probably have simpler rooves. A lot of your suggestions are thigns some of us already have suggested, like the "Septon Conclave" that General McNuggets and Kulmen29 were attemtping in earlier tests. Also, any traces of the Faith Militant would have been repurposed since they were destroyed almost three-hundred years ago.

I apologize for any redundancies/repeat suggestions that I have made,

Do you have pictures of your tests by any chance? I’d like to see

I’d also like your opinion on the complex having seven different towers, a part for the silent sisters as well as overall opinions/feedback.

Edit: Question btw: Do the project leads intend to have the Sept be black on the inside? Or will it be light and colorful similar to the Byzantine style of Aachener Dom?

In regards to the Sept domes, I added a dome because most of the Septs on the server (Highgarden, Baelor, Stoney Sept, Lannisport, etc.) all have domes and because I felt a building of such high status deserved a dome to reflect its grandeur.

Also, regarding the temple, I added the pictures of my personal builds so you guys could see my overall style/experience with different styles as well as offering inspiration for other ideas such as Dorne

In addition, you suggest El Templo looks like a mormon temple, I see what you mean although that was not intended, it was intended to look like this building (also in Barcelona but not sagrada familia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Expiatori_del_Sagrat_Cor
 

Enah

Skinchanger
The building would be dark, so black stone/marble will help with that, as it's described as "Shadowy halls" and you had no idea of anyone's previous suggestions but many people have given forth ideas (mostly buuilders) that are already thought about and included in the document.
I dont know why you cannot access the server to see them for yourself? Does bedrock do something stupid like prevent traditional servers or custom launchers?
 

ContraBlonde

Prophet
The building would be dark, so black stone/marble will help with that, as it's described as "Shadowy halls" and you had no idea of anyone's previous suggestions but many people have given forth ideas (mostly buuilders) that are already thought about and included in the document.
I dont know why you cannot access the server to see them for yourself? Does bedrock do something stupid like prevent traditional servers or custom launchers?

Java servers like Westeros are incompatible with Bedrock edition (iOS in my case). I know, I’ve wanted java edition for as long as I can remember but I don’t have a computer so I cannot join the server.
 
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AerioOndos

Donkey Lord
Staff member
Pronouns
they/them
All that on your phone? Even the sketches?

I absolutely love the sketches and they make it evident that great minds think alike! There are a few tests, particularly Mandos', that look very similar to your plans. I can try taking pictures of it and sending it to this thread. Here is an image I took using the mc.westeroscraft dynmap.
2339

It is by no means final, nor the only test but it is most similar in its layout to yours. At least by my reckoning.
 

ContraBlonde

Prophet
All that on your phone? Even the sketches?

I absolutely love the sketches and they make it evident that great minds think alike! There are a few tests, particularly Mandos', that look very similar to your plans. I can try taking pictures of it and sending it to this thread. Here is an image I took using the mc.westeroscraft dynmap.

It is by no means final, nor the only test but it is most similar in its layout to yours. At least by my reckoning.

Thanks for the feedback! I did the sketches and sept on my iPad (with Apple Pencil)

I would ask if the leads would have the sept have seven sides (like Baelors) or 8 sides like the one you showed?

Also can you get any pictures of the interior (if there is one)? I’d like to see the inside!
 

AerioOndos

Donkey Lord
Staff member
Pronouns
they/them
The interiors of Mandos' one are pretty much done in terms of the structure. not much furniture though.

Seven sided buildings are hard to do in minecraft but there are quite a few newer tests that do have seven sides. I'll try and get a few photos of the insides asap (stuck in area of bad wifi where I can't really get onto the server.)
 

ContraBlonde

Prophet
The interiors of Mandos' one are pretty much done in terms of the structure. not much furniture though.

Seven sided buildings are hard to do in minecraft but there are quite a few newer tests that do have seven sides. I'll try and get a few photos of the insides asap (stuck in area of bad wifi where I can't really get onto the server.)
Thank you
 

Thamus_Knoward

Shadowbinder
I'm not happy with how OT is planned at the moment. I would like to contribute with some of the actual work that's being done around the place, but the information on what is needed is only distributed via the backchannels between a cabal of a few trusted builders, editors and mods. This is what it seems like to me, an outsider with a limited presence on the server, admittedly.

I know that the main argument here is that 'it's just infrastructure' that's being built, but why is it built at all? why is it not plotted and the details are figured out when the actual build has started, thus allowing everyone the opportunity to join in a fair and open process. Or do it like it has been done at previous server builds by establishing detailed style guides.

The nefariously unfinished OT Doc is another reason I hear that is put forth to exclude interested participants. By now it should be clear to everyone that it is slow if only said cabal tries to cobbles it together. Why not open that on GitBook or Google Docs, and take PRs/ comments respectively?

Maybe interested parties could be coordinated through Trello, Zenhub, Asana, w/e you're familiar with?

Not addressing the issues will inevitably lead to more friction in my opinion. And personally, if the argument to exclude the majority is to maintain 'high quality' then either our application process isn't stringent enough, or we need some form of intermitted quality assessment, however, I think it is more likely that expectations aren't communicated efficiently enough.

I do think that all of us are able to work of simplified examples, style guides and guidelines.
 

Iwan

Boldtown
Hey Tham, and thank you very much for your comments.

Allow me to dissect and break down your feedback into more digestible bits. If you don't agree with any of my interpretations of any of your points or you feel like I've missed some please let me know.
  1. It is not possible to contribute to Oldtown
  2. Work on Oldtown is limited to a small number of people
  3. The style development/testing is not a fair and open process
  4. There are no detailed style guides being developed
  5. The Oldtown document is not finished and its development is not public
  6. There are no means of coordination
  7. Feedback/concerns are not being addressed
  8. Expectations are not communicated efficiently enough

1. It is not possible to contribute to Oldtown
Oldtown is still in planning stages. As with any other project or server project before, the majority of the planning is limited to the project leader(s). It is their responsibility to lay out the basic rules and guidelines, as well as develop the styles of the project.

1.1 Terrain
Oldtown has come with an extensive overhaul of the entire south-western Reach, including the Honeywine river and the entire coast line between Bandallon and Cuy. I have always maintained that I do not want to start the city itself before the surroundings weren't completed.
A large part of my presence on the server in the last 3 years were spent working on this overhaul. I asked people (those that have a profound knowledge of terraforming, for obvious reasons) repeatedly for help, and did receive a fair amount of support from people like Fin, Kor, Endy, Simba, Luk and others (please forgive me if your name has escaped me right now.) But the majority of work was done by myself, and it has not been an unusual occurrence that someone would promise to pick up a task, work on it halfway through and then drop it, for me to pick it up and finish it.

1.2 Plotting/Infrastructure
A lot of work has been put into laying out the city walls, the main road network, an extensive freshwater and sewage system and the locations of major landmarks within the city. These things have mostly been done by myself, as the project leaders of other projects or server projects usually do with their projects. It's the natural approach, that the project leader(s) lay out the foundation of a project, and projects like Whiteharbor, King's Landing, Winterfell or Highgarden, just to name a few of the largest ones, have been done exactly like this.

I have indeed attempted to include various people in these steps several times. Unfortunately, especially the less enjoyable tasks, e.g. laying out and building sewer or tunnel systems, have not caused much enthusiasm. Here too I've received some help from various people, and some again have picked up a task only to drop it and disappear halfway through.

1.3 Styles
As with many server builds, community contributions are highly encouraged, and appropriate test areas are usually set up for people to free-build and share their visions. The Oldtown test area, albeit a cluttered mess, is by far the largest area dedicated to a single project in our test world, and has been open for anyone to build.
In the end however, it has always been the project leader(s) who develop and make the final decisions on the styles used in a project, as has been the case with any of our major projects that I can think of, like, again, King's Landing/the Red Keep, Whiteharbor, Highgarden, Winterfell and others.

In some cases project leaders decided to create extensive style guides that showcase the details of a certain style. I have chosen to create these style guides in situ, and this is what is currently in various spots throughout the city.

2. Work on Oldtown is limited to a small number of people
Yes, work on Oldtown is limited to a small number of people. That is because the infrastructure, the styles and many other aspects are still in development. As explained in 1.3, the project leader(s) of a project develop a style first and then it is communicated to the community when a build is started. There are Co- or Sub-Leaders already in place for some of the major landmarks of Oldtown, and others will be picked for other parts of the city later. Naturally, not everybody can become a Co-Leader of the project, and we pick those as carefully as ever - I don't believe it comes as a surprise that the project leader and co-leaders of a server project come largely from the mods and the most active builders on the server.

I am and have been making an effort to include different people in this process beyond the co-leads. I often ask publicly if someone was interested in working on a certain thing, and whenever I am approached my someone who wants to contribute something to Oldtown I go out of my way to try to find a task for them. Having just agreed to work on a model and layout for the Oldtown harbor you ought to know this.

3. The style development/testing is not a fair and open process
The style development is as open as I can make it. Anyone is welcome to test for anything they like, anyone is encouraged to pick up on elements already plotted or presented in the city area and expand on it. It is insofar not an open and fair project that I can not guarantee to use everybody's contributions and visions. I am trying to incorporate as many ideas as possible, and I try to take everyone's input seriously and give it the same amount of consideration, but in the end as a project leader I have to decide what will fit and what won't fit. I don't see anything unusual with this approach.

4. There are no detailed style guides being developed
The development of style guides is happening right now, on site, in various spots around the city. None of these are final, a lot of the stuff present right now will eventually either find other places or disappear entirely. It's a fluent process, and anyone can comment on or contribute to the stuff we're working on if they so desire.

5. The Oldtown document is not finished and its development is not public
I am not going to publish an unfinished document, period. The document's purpose is to present EStoop's and my vision of Oldtown. Once it is published there will be plenty of opportunity to comment on the ideas we present.

You can certainly relate to real life taking its toll on the time and motivation that is required to compile an extensive document on an imaginary city, and I am sure you can understand if we choose to spend more of the free time we have with something that's more fun than the document grind, especially with the additional responsibilities in the community both Stoop (Fairmarket) and I as a Mod have. We're both rather perfectionist people, too, and would rather delay the publication than produce something half-baked.

6. There are no means of coordination
Well, you've found one. On the server yesterday you have further alleged that we had closed the respective Oldtown threads and the Discord. While that is true for the Discord channel - I have opened it up again but I will close it as soon as the discussions are being derailed again - it certainly isn't for the forum threads. These have never been closed, and I have no idea how you had arrived at the conclusion that they were.

If you had looked around the Oldtown sub forum - which, admittedly, could benefit from more traffic and a regularity to updates - you'd have found that we already have a publicly visible Trello board that I maintain somewhat regularly. We also have a Mod-internal Asana board for Oldtown that you yourself set up back when you were spearheading Oldtown efforts as a Mod.

7. Feedback/concerns are not being addressed
I'd like to ask you to provide an example of me flat out ignoring feedback. I don't think it's the case that I have ever brushed aside someone's concerns without engaging in a conversation and trying to remedy the problem as soon as I was made aware of it.
In fact, I receive feedback on all sorts of aspects of the City every day, however minuscule. People will have an idea or an impression, or concerns about all sorts of things, and I have listened to it all. I can not always reply (like I didn't reply to the ideas presented in this thread in the past couple days) the way people would probably like me to, but I read and listen to anything people want to share.

8. Expectations are not communicated efficiently enough
The document lines out our vision and expectations, once completed. The style examples currently in development will explain our vision and expectations, once completed. As explained in 1-4, we're in the process of developing these things, feedback is encouraged, contributions welcome. In the end we will decide on the styles and create explanatory style guides in situ on which people will base their Oldtown builds on. There will be at least one style guide for each District, and I'm currently planning to plotting and build in parts an entire sliver of Oldtown that will showcase both fundamentals of plotting and building, with a focus on transitioning between different density zones. This guide will eventually enable others to contribute not only in building but also plotting.
#

(tbc.)
 

Iwan

Boldtown
(cont.)

Developing Oldtown has thus far taken more than 3 years. 3 years ago I picked up the project after it was dropped. I have been working on Oldtown related stuff since 2012, I remember distinctly how I started a certain Oldtown model that you would eventually finish after I left for my hiatus.
I am very aware that a great number of people have great interest in and care deeply about Oldtown. I am aware that people would have waited forever and would start build it sooner rather than later. I am doing what I can to get closer to this goal every day.

It has always been a parallel process. The plans were originally to start terraforming and preparing the infrastructure (major road networks, walls, sewers,...) in parallel with completing a new, more thorough, better thought out and clearer document that highlights the stylistic and architectural information to create a basis on which people could test styles, and lays down clear and easy to follow rules and guidelines for people to follow. I did not expect both processes (the terraforming and infrastructure process and the document writing process) to take as long as they did - and still do - , and I did not expect the one process to overtake the other: the terraforming/infrastructure process that's happening on the server started to blend over into the style development. There is still stuff to finish regarding infrastructure, for instance the sewers on the west bank which were started but not yet finished. But I think that I too deserve to postpone unpleasant tasks and focus on something more entertaining every now and then.

Both processes are close to being finished, however, and I decided to suspend any further work on Oldtown proper now until the document has caught up and everyone has had enough time to dissect it as much as they desire.

I know that I could have done a lot better to make Oldtown a more transparent and open approach. I am much personally much better at doing things rather than talking about them, and the organization, maintenance and upkeep of communicative tools such as Asana or Trello, writing update posts on the forums or discussing an idea, test or feedback with someone are actual work and take me an immense amount of time. I am genuinely sorry and I apologize to the entire community that - not if - I have neglected many aspects of it, especially update posts. I will try to improve on this in the future.

At the same time I would like to ask one thing from the community. I wish people would instead of seeing that we still haven't achieved what we all hoped to achieve much sooner focus on what we have already accomplished. I prompt you to look back and remember how the southern reach, how Oldtown looked 1, 2 or 3 years ago. We have come a long way. And as the one who has had to do the pulling on the majority of the way I can guarantee you that it wasn't an easy one. So, if there is currently a bit of an upheaval about progress on Oldtown, I hope you don't mind me pointing out that it isn't the presumably prestigious tasks of developing a style or building a landmark but the unpleasant ones that hold back progress, and I wish that there had been as much enthusiasm for terraforming or laying out roads or sewers as there is now for building retaining walls and river banks. And as mentioned above, it's not for the lack of asking for help with these things.
#

Lastly, on a personal note.
You say you aren't happy with how Oldtown is being organized. That's your right. I just want to point out that it is not my aspiration to make you or any individual happy, neither with how I organize this build nor with how it will look when it's once finished. It'd be naive to expect that a project of this magnitude and importance to our diverse community will not leave some disappointed. My entire concern lies with enabling this community to produce the best city build possible to turn Oldtown into something we can all be proud of. But I will always respect individual opinions and - I have explained this already - will try my best to accommodate for them as best as I can.

And I have a bit of feedback for you, Tham.
First, I'd wish that you would stop painting yourself as an outsider, as you say. As a former mod and former (server) project leader you know the ins and outs of how this community is being run, and the people behind it, and have a substantially larger understanding than the vast majority of members about what we can and cannot, and want and want not do.

Second, And that regards the way you decided to go about delivering this feedback, yesterday on the server and in this post.
For someone who, like you, has a truly singular access to me, who I consider a close friend and whose opinions I have not only always respected but also repeatedly sought out, and who is certainly one of the chief promoters of establishing a healthy and respectful feedback culture in our community, to lash out at me like you did yesterday was very confusing, and I do not exaggerate when I say that it hurt my feelings. Terms like "cabal", "nefarious", or snarky remarks like "which of the locked threads" I was going to open - wrongfully implying I would silence and ignore community feedback - , as well as constructing further straw men like the alleged absence of a Trello board, while it's linked visibly for anyone to find who cares to read up on Oldtown stuff, are not only disrespectful and counter-productive, they are plain toxic and obnoxious. You can not talk to me like this.
I don't know how much frustration you might have had bottled up about how I run Oldtown, and I'm certain that there are reasons of which I am anything but innocent of that you may be frustrated about. But I think it's hardly my fault if you haven't chosen to talk to me directly about what you think goes awry, in a plain and respectful manner - if the repeated discussions about how you might help with Oldtown in the past couple days were meant to be hints, I'm sorry, but I didn't pick up on it and I wish you had just spelled it out for me in one of the many private conversations we have recently had. I am certainly aware of many of my shortcomings, and I don't think I have ever taken offense to having further ones pointed out, and you ought to know that.
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tl;dr: You're right that communication is lacking. You are not right that we are excluding the community from building at Oldtown. We are still in the development stage, and the action you see at Oldtown is part of setting up style guides. Contributions are strictly encouraged. Work on Oldtown however is suspended now until the Document caught up. While I will always try my best to listen to productive feedback I'm not going to stand any further snarky remarks or general aggressiveness over how I handle Oldtown.
 

Thamus_Knoward

Shadowbinder
Thanks for taking the time to respond, not only in words but also in actions.

And first up, I am very sorry that my hastily written comments have offended you. I did not mean for them to be snarky, nor was I consciously aggressive or angry when I typed them.

My main concern is that from my point of view the planning, development and layouting of an official document came after that fact that building had started in situ. Which seemed to run contrary to any other project on the server. I am glad to see that this is now more in focus.
 
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Regarding on site building during the planing phase and that there is no precedent to OT:

I remember WH having a lot of on site example houses done during the planing phase by SMP and Nick and a few builders (Not sure about the people exactly). More specifically the road along the old mint and once again in the more shanty eastern section of the town along the east wall.
Some infrastructure elements were also done ahead of time on coordination with some interested builders.
 
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