Where on the timeline is our server? (3/3/299 AC)

[DutchGuard]

Hmmmm this is some good thinking. I've got another idea.



Yellow: God's Eye town
Black: Destroyed village
Pink: Fishing Village (where Gendry is captured)
Blue Line: Arya's journey from the God's Eye town to the Fishing Village
Green Line: Gregor's forces
White Line: Amory's forces

So here's the headcanon timeline for this:

Both Amory and Gregor set out from Harrenhal going south down the Kingsroad pillaging as they go.
While Amory is sacking Sow's Horn, Gregor heads west and reaches the bridge south of the God's Eye, and burns it after he crosses it into Chamber's lands, so that the people there can't escape across the river.
In the meantime, Yoren and Arya are moving north up the Hayford road to the God's Eye town, not realizing that Amory Lorch is only a few hours behind them.
The reason the God's Eye town is deserted when they get there is because Gregor only narrowly misses the town, and the townsfolk flee on the boats (presumably crossing the lake to somewhere safe).
Amory arrives and sacks the God's Eye town, planning to eventually follow the eastern shoreline north back to Harrenhal, pillaging as he goes.
In the meantime, Gregor is pillaging the lands across the river, planning to return to Harrenhal following the western shoreline.

This way, neither force has gone around the western part of the lake. It is likely that while Arya is in the God's Eye town, Gregor is in the destroyed village that Arya later sees as she is headed north along the western shore.

So, what does this mean for Chambers?

Gregor has probably been pillaging and burning the area for a few days at least. As our unofficial date is 3/3/299 and Arya is attacked at the God's Eye town on 2/28/299, it is likely that Arya is headed toward the fishing village where Gendry will eventually be captured, somewhere along the blue line on the above map.
Gregor is probably already at the village with his camp set up nearby. It would be up to Nicodemus to determine how much of the area has been sacked, bearing in mind that Arya says "Farms, villages, castles, septs, barns" had been burned. Could it be Gregor had sacked the castle of House Chambers or maybe she's just being hyperbolic?

 

[StanateeManatee]

All very nice, but I feel everyone is putting too much emphasis on the "Island to the northwest". This girl has been running for her life after her rich and noble childhood has been thrown into chaos with the blaspheming and execution of her father. She's been living in ditches, foraging for food and avoiding bands of marauders, rapers and killers. With that in mind, it seems to me she might be a little turned around.
On the last point, its very reasonable to think she might be hyperbolic about the scope of destruction, she's ten years old and is seeing war for the first time (plus the above stresses). What ten year old isn't hyperbolic to begin with, let alone in such an awful setting?

 

[DutchGuard]

All very nice, but I feel everyone is putting too much emphasis on the "Island to the northwest". This girl has been running for her life after her rich and noble childhood has been thrown into chaos with the blaspheming and execution of her father. She's been living in ditches, foraging for food and avoiding bands of marauders, rapers and killers. With that in mind, it seems to me she might be a little turned around.
On the last point, its very reasonable to think she might be hyperbolic about the scope of destruction, she's ten years old and is seeing war for the first time (plus the above stresses). What ten year old isn't hyperbolic to begin with, let alone in such an awful setting?

This is a valid argument, it's one I made myself early on in discussions. Briefly, for clarity's sake, she sees the island to the northeast, not the northwest.
I suggested her exaggerating the scope of the destruction for two reasons; one because the way it's written in the narrative first person lends a dramatic air, and two because there simply isn't enough space between the God's Eye town and the southwestern shore of the God's Eye on our map to cram all that stuff she sees in there, one village tops. It just doesn't work with our map scale. But, to address your first point...

I agree that she might be quite befuddled, but I don't think Arya is the kind of character that would be so traumatized that she loses her sense of direction for an extended period of time. Compasses and GPS aren't a thing (or at least aren't mentioned) so learning how to determine your orientation is a skill I should think most people learn in their childhood and becomes second nature. When Arya escapes Harrenhal (SoS, Ch. 3 Arya I) she proves her navigational competency even under challenging conditions:

“Do you know where we’re going?” Gendry asked her.
“North,” said Arya.
Hot Pie peered around uncertainly. “Which way is north?”
She used her cheese to point. “That way.”
“But there’s no sun. How do you know?”
“From the moss. See how it grows mostly on one side of the trees? That’s south.”

Which I think shows she's an able navigator. She's a competent character who excels under challenging circumstances which is proven time and time again in the series. To write her off as easily confused is a disservice.
In CoK Ch.19 Arya V she has an excellent vantage from her spot up in a tree and should have no trouble telling what direction she is looking in. If she was under duress or drunk maybe she might make a mistake, but she isn't either of those things. She also isn't speaking aloud so it isn't a kind of lingual slip-up or intentional deception.

But there is even more evidence.
In CoK Ch.26 Arya VI it reads:

Yet they walked all that day and most of the next before at last they reached the fringes of Lord Tywin’s army, encamped west of the castle
amidst the scorched remains of a town. Harrenhal was deceptive from afar, because it was so huge.

So, Tywin's army is encamped west of the castle. She sees the camp first, with Harrenhal in the distance. Meaning she is coming from the west side of the lake. We can't argue with that.

With the routes we've come up with, why does it matter which side it is anyway? All things being equal, the more likely solution is the right one. The only consequence of this decision is that the Chambers project has a burned village and the canon fishing village with Gregor and his men in it, which is something Nico has happily agreed to including in his application. It doesn't affect Willow Wood or any other existing project at all. The alternative would just be placing those things in another project on the other side of the lake for no reason. Unless there is some reason? I dunno, you tell me.

 

[AerioOndos]

Another argument for the western path around the Godseye is that Yoren would have wanted to get off the Kingsroad as soon as possible to avoid Lions catching up with them. I think the best way to fit everything in would be to have a road winding along the western shore, rather than going straight from one point to the other. We can create a false sense of distance and use dense woods to cut off longer sightlines. This might be particularly helpful to block sight of one village from the next, etc. Additionally, the island if it isn't the Gods Eye, could be used to block the sight of Harrenhal from X locations so that it is only viewed from closer by.

 

[Hugh_Stewart]

Just to append: Arya's route around the God's Eye was previously discussed on a thread which may not have survived the port to the new website, and the fishing village where Gendry was captured already exists on the west bank of the lake at /warp harbury. I'm pretty sure that it was built before Willow Wood and the lands of House Ryger, so these may need to be burnt to represent the destruction she witnessed on her journey.

Also, I don't know how much sense it makes to assign Hogg Hall to House Wode when there is already a House Hogg, one of whom is the Knight of Sow's Horn and a vassal to the Hayfords. This is in the Crownlands however, so there may be a separate branch of the family who have a minor holding in the riverlands. The Wodes control (IIRC) two motte-and-bailey castles near the kingsroad to the east of the God's Eye, both destroyed in the war -- but probably not until after the date the server is set.

 

[DutchGuard]

Just to append: Arya's route around the God's Eye was previously discussed on a thread which may not have survived the port to the new website, and the fishing village where Gendry was captured already exists on the west bank of the lake at /warp harbury. I'm pretty sure that it was built before Willow Wood and the lands of House Ryger, so these may need to be burnt to represent the destruction she witnessed on her journey.

Also, I don't know how much sense it makes to assign Hogg Hall to House Wode when there is already a House Hogg, one of whom is the Knight of Sow's Horn and a vassal to the Hayfords. This is in the Crownlands however, so there may be a separate branch of the family who have a minor holding in the riverlands. The Wodes control (IIRC) two motte-and-bailey castles near the kingsroad to the east of the God's Eye, both destroyed in the war -- but probably not until after the date the server is set.

Hey thanks for your input! Here's my response:

Re: Harbury
Totally agreed, but I think everyone would like to avoid a situation where we have to alter an already completed build, especially when there is a workaround as outlined earlier in this thread.

Re: Hogg Hall
Your suggestion, which I have considered myself, is problematic because canon says House Hogg is in the Crownlands and Hogg Hall is in the Riverlands. Additionally, it doesn't make much sense for the Lannisters to be attacking a Crownlands house.

 

[Hugh_Stewart]

Hey thanks for your input! Here's my response:

Re: Harbury
Totally agreed, but I think everyone would like to avoid a situation where we have to alter an already completed build, especially when there is a workaround as outlined earlier in this thread.

Re: Hogg Hall
Your suggestion, which I have considered myself, is problematic because canon says House Hogg is in the Crownlands and Hogg Hall is in the Riverlands. Additionally, it doesn't make much sense for the Lannisters to be attacking a Crownlands house.

Harbury: Oh absolutely, but building a second capture-village would necessitate altering an existing build -- Harbury -- anyway, since it would be odd to have two identical villages. The canon as to how it looks is quite specific; building a new version would require changing or removing the original. I'm not totally convinced that there's space to add 'septs, barns, castles' + a new Harbury between the God's Eye town and Willow Wood when Arya and Gendry travelled, I think, for a few nights between the two towns and were not far from Harrenhal when they were captured. The simplest solution might be to add very minimal damage to Willow Wood (or just leaving it, which no one will really mind) and adding a few burnt buildings in the area near the shore.

Hogg Hall: Hence my suggestion that Hogg Hall in the riverlands is just a cadet branch of House Hogg in a different area of Westeros. There is precedent for this: there is a House Kenning in the Iron Islands and another branch of House Kenning in the westerlands. Besides, even if you say it doesn't make sense for Lannisters to attack a house from the crownlands, they actually already did: Ser Amory tried to burn Sow's Horn during his raids. Although again there is an easier solution: the only reference to Hogg Hall is it being obliterated nearly two centuries before the server is set. Maybe it simply doesn't exist any more, and the homeless Hoggs resettled in the crownlands.

 

[AerioOndos]

I agree with Hugh Stewart on Hogg Hall here. It completely makes sense to me that the Hogg family, or at least a branch of it, settled closer to the capital after the war between the Faith and Maegor.
And the whole point was that Ser Amory was out of control and just burning, raping and pillaging because he enjoyed it and didn't care who by that point.

 

[DutchGuard]

I like the idea that they re-settled. I'm sure a project application with any of these arguments, provided they are backed by direct quotes, could be approved.

 

[Spikespiegel]

I think the server should just be set before book 1. I know it might require a few changes here and there, but it makes things a hell of a lot easier on us than if the server is set between books 1 and 2 or during book 2.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

I think the server should just be set before book 1. I know it might require a few changes here and there, but it makes things a hell of a lot easier on us than if the server is set between books 1 and 2 or during book 2.

Hard Disagree, this will involve having to reset a great deal of things from the tourney grounds at Kings Landing, Winterfell's interiors, Highgarden's tourney grounds to Mances camp, to the entirety of the Riverlands. Not to mention outdating blocks like the Renly banners.

It would also nix a great deal of anticipated immersive areas like Robb's, Tywin's and Renly's war camps.

 

[Spikespiegel]

Minor things. It's easier than changing most of the Riverlands to looking like a battlefield and adding refugee camps all over King's Landing.

 

[Jakethesnake8_8]

I don't think changes to castles, interiors, tourney grounds and entire regions are really 'minor things'. Especially since there are a lot of pillaged fields, hamlets and buildings in the Riverlands, it wouldn't be practical to shift the server timeline, especially when we're this far into working at our current timeline. I think that in spite of how much easier it may be to have an earlier timeline, I don't think all the changes that would come with it would be worth it in the long run. Additionally, I think the burned areas of the Riverlands contribute to a much more interesting build than if hamlets were intact, and fields un-burned. I think we're better off sticking to the timeline we have right now.

 

[DutchGuard]

I don't think changes to castles, interiors, tourney grounds and entire regions are really 'minor things'. Especially since there are a lot of pillaged fields, hamlets and buildings in the Riverlands, it wouldn't be practical to shift the server timeline, especially when we're this far into working at our current timeline. I think that in spite of how much easier it may be to have an earlier timeline, I don't think all the changes that would come with it would be worth it in the long run. Additionally, I think the burned areas of the Riverlands contribute to a much more interesting build than if hamlets were intact, and fields un-burned. I think we're better off sticking to the timeline we have right now.

I agree, especially with the argument that our current point on the timeline is much more interesting. We can pinpoint exactly where we are in the story (or at least, I have tried to), so we can, in future, track where the main characters are. It means we get to have some big war camps and have some recently ruined and captured castles, and castles at various stages of siege. While I personally have no issue with adding a few refugee camps around KL, the text doesn't explicitly detail these in the same way it does the war paths of several main players, and would be less bothered by their omission.

I have tried in this thread to come up with a point in the timeline which is amenable to all completed and in progress projects in the most directly "affected" areas. Meaning we don't have to ruin anything already built. I would of course still love to see a small Lannister camp near the walls of Maidenpool (Veggie ), and some more evidence of troop movement around Lolliston (Wazgamer ), but these are not total revisions of existing builds/ideas. I know Patrick/Yzyc is amenable to having some areas in the north of Goode (around Bowshot Bridge) show signs of raiding by Gregor and his men, and I have put together a plan for the lands of House Chambers which explains Arya's journey before she is captured on the shore of the God's Eye, without the need for making any changes to the completed Willow Wood (except for un-burning Harbury which I'm pretty sure predates the rest of the project anyway). The only issue outstanding which I cannot resolve is that of Lychester which was built undamaged, but is directly in the path of the Lannister forces which by our point in the timeline are already camped at Harrenhal.

These war paths are clearly defined in this post which hopefully illustrates what areas are most affected.

Spikespiegel , is there a particular project or area that you would rather not see affected by war which makes you think you'd rather change our frame of reference?

 

[Spikespiegel]

I like the Riverlands and prefer building the riverlands. I would like my first real project to be a riverlands project as well. Right now, I am considering Gods Eye Town. I dont want to build abandoned and burnt down towns, though.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

I like the Riverlands and prefer building the riverlands. I would like my first real project to be a riverlands project as well. Right now, I am considering Gods Eye Town. I dont want to build abandoned and burnt down towns, though.

Theres plenty of other areas in the Riverlands

 

[DutchGuard]

I like the Riverlands and prefer building the riverlands. I would like my first real project to be a riverlands project as well. Right now, I am considering Gods Eye Town. I dont want to build abandoned and burnt down towns, though.

That project area is very dense with canon details which would need to be thoroughly mapped out. Gregor has already been through the area and caused much of the chaos witnessed by Arya & Co on their way along the Kingsroad. I have made a post (which you have probably already seen) saying the exact date on when the town is attacked is fairly flexible. I personally would love to see the town smouldering and still aflame in places, with Amory's men camped nearby, and evidence of a battle near the keep. I think it could be highly immersive and evocative of the source material.

If you aren't interested in any of that I would recommend looking elsewhere. There are plenty of areas in the Riverlands materially unaffected by the war. Bourney, Moontown, Wayfarer's Rest, and Mandrake, off the top of my head. Others, such as Penny, Donnelwood, and Perryn just need minor detailing of nearby skirmishes, such as the Battle of the Green Fork near Penny. For something a little different there is the Hollow Hill update and the lands surrounding (where /warp hollowhillproject is).

 

[Spikespiegel]

I am interested in doing a canon-accurate version of Gods Eye Town. My problem is that in 99% of our completed projects, it is impossible to tell there is a war going on.
Fairmarket is a town in the Riverlands, but you cannot tell at all there is a war raging in the region.
According to canon, Ser Gregor is running around pillaging and burning villages and towns all over the Riverlands. Are we building villages and hamlets that show signs of this? No, we are building quaint little village with lots of food stored and fires burning in the hearths. Everywhere looks lived in and nowhere looks abandoned.
In Stoney Sept, Marge has made a food charity at the Sept and I had corpses line up outside the Silent Sisters. Other than that, the town still looks pristine with no trace of war or refugees.
Kings Landing is supposed to be full of refugees, yet we are still not building tents or impromptu shelters in the streets. No the streets are all wide and clear.
If we are so set on putting the server between books 1 and 2 or during book 2, all the projects should show it and not just a few locales in the Riverlands.

 

[DutchGuard]

I am interested in doing a canon-accurate version of Gods Eye Town. My problem is that in 99% of our completed projects, it is impossible to tell there is a war going on.
Fairmarket is a town in the Riverlands, but you cannot tell at all there is a war raging in the region.
According to canon, Ser Gregor is running around pillaging and burning village and towns all over the Riverlands. Are we building village and Hamlet that show signs of this? No, we are building quaint little village with lots of food stored and fires burning in the hearths. Everywhere looks lived in and nowhere looks abandoned.
In Stoney Sept, Marge has made a food charity at the Sept and I had corpses line up outside the Silent Sisters. Other than that, the town still looks pristine with no trace of war or refugees.
Kings Landing is supposed to be full of refugees, yet we are still not building tents or impromptu shelters in the streets. No the streets are all wide and clear.
If we are so set on putting the server between books 1 and 2 or during book 2, all the projects should show it and not just a few locales in the Riverlands.

I agree with you, but it would be unfair to ask project leaders to heavily revise their projects at this stage.

That said, neither Stoney Sept nor Fairmarket are mentioned in canon as being visibly affected by the war at this point in the timeline. Hopefully reading this thread from start to finish reveals my methodology and evidence for coming to the solution that I have put forward. What I am the most interested in and what I think is the most relevant at this point in the story is the paths of the armies and raiding parties in the Riverlands. I have made maps in this thread exploring that and the level of damage to be expected from each of these areas based on the most likely routes taken by each force.

Canon strongly indicates that much of the western Riverlands is heavily raided by Gregor before the full on Lannister assault which stretches from Golden Tooth to Harrenhal, taking Pinkmaiden, Raventree Hall, Stone Hedge, Darry and Harrenhal. Some time after Tywin returns to Harrenhal that Gregor, Amory, and Vargo begin their raids of the eastern and central Riverlands, though this is still in the early stages. As I have mapped out previously, they have only raided the areas East and South of the God's Eye. Not every part of the Riverlands must be ravaged by war, especially in these early days, just the central corridor following the Red Fork, and areas around the God's Eye.

I don't personally see this as a choice. We have the red comet in the sky, several builds already showing signs of war (e.g. Stone Hedge, Pinkmaiden), the Seven statues and the fleet at Dragonstone, and several other features pointed out by others. If we choose to make certain areas unaffected and others not, in doing so making the map incongruous, I don't really have personal issue with that, but it could cause a great deal of confusion for anyone trying to make sense of the world, especially if we ever want to implement RP elements. All the projects (except for Lychester) most directly affected by war are either unbuilt, abandoned, or already reflect wartime. I see it as a great opportunity to get this region in line with the events of the series.

 

[DutchGuard]

A very quick update as I have just realized my old map is outdated slightly after the discussion of what happens on Arya's journey south of the God's Eye.



Yellow: Tywin Lannister
After setting out from Golden Tooth and taking Riverrun they continue on to Raventree Hall and Harrenhal. After taking Harrenhal, they meet Roose Bolton at the Battle of the Green Fork, then return to the Crossroads and set up camp there briefly before returning to Harrenhal. They march very quickly.
Purple: Gregor Clegane
Has been raiding the Western riverlands [Wendish Town, Sherrer] for some time before taking Pinkmaiden, he re-joins Tywin's invading army after taking Stone Hedge, sacks Darry at some point, and begins raiding out of Harrenhal once Tywin is camped there. He is headed around the east coast of the God's Eye in a route either with Amory Lorch or parallel to it. They split off as Amory sacks Sow's Horn and Gregor goes west across Bowshot Bridge, burning it behind him after he crosses. He then eventually makes his way up to the fishing village where he (after the current point in the timeline) intercepts Arya & Co.
Orange: Vargo Hoat
Raiding around Harrenhal, might be working his way towards Maidenpool.
Red: Amory Lorch
Attacks Sow's Horn, burns the bridge on Hayford road before heading up to the God's Eye Town where he attacks Arya & Co.
Green: Roose Bolton
Marches south to meet Tywin at the battle of the Green Fork before returning to camp outside the Twins
White: Robb Stark
Marches south through Hag's Mire and Sevenstreams to reach the Battle of the Whispering Wood where he captures Jaime before retaking Riverrun (and likely sends forces to liberate Raventree Hall and Stone Hedge).