Where on the timeline is our server? (3/3/299 AC)

[DutchGuard]

Thanks for your comments, this is exactly why I wanted to discuss all of this openly, to identify where collisions are between my proposed date and what we have built already. Could you be more specific how this affects the builds you mentioned? Off the top of my head we'd have to remove the burning statues on the beach at Dragonstone, but I can't think how it affects the others. Yes, the comet would be anachronous, so either we remove that or we just accept it as appearing a few weeks early, for fun.

The alternative is to do what I suggested in my reply to Ric a few posts back:

Spoiler

If you are arguing that we should set the server at the start of A Clash of Kings, when the Riverlands is a proper warzone, here is what it should look like as compared to my proposed date:

- Pinkmaiden, Stonehedge, and the smaller burnt areas of the Riverlands on our server would remain correct (indeed, more would need to be added). Raventree Hall needs to be moved regardless.

These places remain ruined, but are recaptured by their respective lords with the Northmens help.

- Harrenhal is being held by Tywin's troops.

This remains true, but is now occupied by a larger host.

- Tywin's full army is camped at the Crossroads, having quickly rampaged through the Riverlands (canon indicates he got to the Crossroads from Golden tooth in 17 days!!) and has likely just captured Darry (he is said to be holding the Ruby Ford by this point). Tyrion has just joined him with the Mountain Clans.

Tywin has moved into Harrenhal, the camp at the Crossroads is gone. Darry is recaptured, briefly, by northmen.

- Renly would not have been crowned just yet (he would be a few days later), but would have set up camp south of Highgarden, near Horn Hill as we have located it, while he is gathering his forces.

Renly has now been crowned, but is still biding his time in the Reach.

- Jaime has won the Battle under the walls of Riverrun, and the castle has been under siege for at least a week.

Jaime has now been captured. The siege of Riverrun has been lifted. The Lannister camp is now replaced with Robbs camp.

- Robb's full army is camped outside the Twins "on the southern edge of the bogs, halfway between the kingsroad and the river" (AGoT Ch. 59, Catelyn 9), just before his army is split in two.

Robbs army camp is gone, instead Roose Bolton is camped outside the Twins while he marries Walda Frey.

- Additionally, we would need to add a lot more destruction to the Riverlands, as you suggested. Northmen would be making their way across the riverlands to aid in the recapture of the castles, so there would be a scattering of northmen encampments while Tywin's main force hides in Harrenhal. Gregor, Vargo, and Amory are raiding the surrounding lands.
- Maidenpool has definitely been sacked at least once by this point.

This alternate date would be likely sometime between the start of the second month and end of the fifth month of 299AC, as Tywin leaves Harrenhal en masse after he hears of Robbs victory at Oxcross, which takes place in month 6. The later the date, the more destruction around the God's Eye.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

I just honestly don't see the benefit of changing the timeline it all just seems unnecessary to shift the time period of the server that we've agreed on nearly 8 years ago to something completely different for no reason and requiring that a great deal of projects shift their parameters and removing a pretty iconic server quirk (the red comet). Along with every in-server reference of the time period of the server.

If this is related to Maidenpool's upcoming redo and the fact of its sacking, thats an argument that can be made separately on the severity of the sacking (since it was apparently sacked an additional 2 more times), we don't need to backtrack on a lot of projects to make sure there are enough "intact" areas in the Riverlands.

 

[Enah]

Woah woah woah, why would we alter the setting again? I agree, it will mess with a lot of canon already built up, such as the tourneys at highgarden for the wedding, the burning of villages that aren't burnt that early in the story, finding room for new camps for the armies, then not to mention we'd have to change entire areas for flooding or remove a shit ton of snow ah, its a lot.

 

[DutchGuard]

Woah woah woah, why would we alter the setting again? I agree, it will mess with a lot of canon already built up, such as the tourneys at highgarden for the wedding, the burning of villages that aren't burnt that early in the story, finding room for new camps for the armies, then not to mention we'd have to change entire areas for flooding or remove a shit ton of snow ah, its a lot.

Renly's wedding is three days after the second day of 299AC, it's more than likely the tourney grounds are already set up.
I'm not sure what villages you are talking about. They're all covered in the aforementioned maps.
Not sure what you mean about the flooding and snow.

There is no need to panic, the comet appears 21 days after my proposed date, which isn't a drastic change.
Again, I would love some help finding concrete examples of things that would need to change besides what I have already mentioned.
I admit, however, that the comet is a very fair bone of contention, and one I had forgotten about until Marg reminded me.

For me, the status of the central Riverlands has always been in a very gray area on our server, which I think is reflected by the general lack of affection is has received. The purpose of this thread is to decide, collectively on a date, because just saying between" books 1 and 2" isn't going to cut it for the Riverlands.

By moving the date a little earlier we can turn the whole region into a cohesive and readable theatre of war with very clear battle lines, right before any major conflicts. We are setting the stage. For me, that is a tangible benefit for the upcoming builds in the area, and any eventual RPG.

Robb is at the Twins
Tywin is at the Crossroads
Jaime is laying siege to Riverrun

As a consequence to existing features:
Remove the burning Seven at Dragonstone
Remove the comet

Keeping the date as after the comet appears would mean:

- The Twins has Roose's half of Robbs army camped outside.
- The Lannister siege is broken at Riverrun by the other half of Robb's army, now camped beneath the walls (how do you make this easy to read in game? Evidence of a siege but with an army not attacking it camped outside?)
- Pinkmaiden, Stone Hedge, Raventree Hall, Darry, and several other castles in the Riverlands have been re-captured by their respective lords (again, how do you show this in game?)
- Tywin is hiding in Harrenhal

As a consequence we would need to add:
- A battlefield along the Green Fork and updating Lolliston to reflect the passage of Tywin's army.
- Evidence at the crossroads of Tywins recently departed camp.
- Evidence of the Battle at Whispering Wood.
- A Maidenpool that has been sacked at least once.

In my opinion, the benefits of having large army camps for each of the major players at the start of the War of the Five Kings is preferable to the muddied scenario which develops after the comet appears. The only major downside that I can see to changing the date to a few weeks earlier is the removal of the comet. In actual fact, I think not moving the date will have more significant consequences.

 

[DutchGuard]

I just want to stress that none of this is set in stone! I certainly am not calling the shots. We're having a discussion with the hope that the result can inform the upcoming Riverlands builds. Once we establish ALL options (I would love more suggestions for other dates), we can take a vote, or let the mods decide, or whatever is most fair.

I do feel very strongly that we should decide on a date, and it is about time we made that decision.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

I disagree and I don't see my position changing. I would rather keep the server in the time period it is in with the events of Robb as King of the North being depicted than not, especially in the wake of enormous precedent of 8 years.

(how do you make this easy to read in game? Evidence of a siege but with an army not attacking it camped outside?)

Yes? Have evidence of siege weapons with Robb's half of his army camped outside. It's not difficult to depict.

Pinkmaiden, Stone Hedge, Raventree Hall, Darry, and several other castles in the Riverlands have been re-captured by their respective lords (again, how do you show this in game?)

Various degrees of damage done to the castles/settlements perhaps with efforts of rebuilding being undertaken. Again, not difficult to depict.

Not sure what you mean about the flooding and snow.

The story of Gregor Clegane raping the innkeeper's daughter mentions that the portion of the Rowan River (unnamed in the books) that starts in the Westerlands was flooded over and what caused The Mountain's Men and Mountain to stay in the Inn in the first place. There would have to be signs of flooding over of the river.

And if we're set earlier we'd have to scale back the extent of our snows back to reflect the earlier time period.

 

[DutchGuard]

I don't expect you to change your position, but I'd like to address your concerns which are probably shared by a few others.

- The point I am trying to make is that in 8 years of building there is almost nothing which denies the proposed change, as it's a very small change.
- Depiction is one thing, making things readable (like we discussed on the Roseroad thread) is another. Is it hard to make a road? No. Is it hard to identify the Roseroad specifically? At the moment, yes.
- The flooding occurs as Gregor and his men are heading home after the Hand's Tourney which takes place in September (or the equivalent thereof) of 298AC according to the timeline, even if it took Gregor a month to get back to the Westerlands, it would still be months before the start of 299AC, and by then the flooding would have long subsided.
- I don't see how anyone would comment on there being more or less snow in the north with a difference of only 21 days. There are no canon details which suggest this is a period of snowfall which markedly changes the North, or any other area. Also, afaik, we didn’t have a plan for how much snow was in the north when we painted it, it could already be wrong!

Also I hadn't addressed one of Enah's points about finding the space for the camps.
The Twins, Riverrun, Harrenhal, and the Crossroads are all eventually going to be redone (at least, last time I checked), and they've got plenty of space around them for large camps.

 

[Elduwin]

My question may be dumb, but what exactly is the date we're currently using precisely? I've always known and said that it was at the end of book 1 / between books 1 & 2, but it has always been quite a blurry thing for me.
Independently to whichever date I'd prefer, I think DutchGuard's work on listing all specificities of each date is a great way to find the one we're currently using and the one we want to set the server on. And if the difference is 21 days, I'm sure the list of differences between both dates should be pretty short, right?

Edit: Maybe, an excel with all the arguments and the changes provoked for each proposed date would help settle it?

 

[DutchGuard]

Hey Eld, not a dumb question at all, that's exactly what I'm trying to determine. As far as I know, we haven't picked a date, which has led to a lot of confusion.
Dates are MM/DD/YYY
If the end of AGoT is the comet appearing, then the date is 1/24/299
If the start of autumn (as signified by the white ravens) is the start of ACoK, the date is 2/1/299
The only concrete thing that links our server to a specific date (as far as I have seen) is the burning of the Seven at Dragonstone, which takes place on 3/3/299, or about a month after the start of ACoK.
For this reason I would assume that the server is currently set on 3/3/299.
The difference then between my proposal and the current date is about two months. The length of time shouldn't matter too much imo, the events that transpire in that time are a more significant change. Gregor, Amory, and Vargo have probably done a lot of damage in those two months. We could also just remove the Seven on the beach at Dragonstone, and push the date back to 2/1/299, but that's still a month of ransacking towns and villages, including Maidenpool.

The principle difference between my proposed date, 1/2/299 and what I assume is our present date of 3/3/299 are the arrangement of armies and relative destruction of the Riverlands.

Want a more chaotic, destroyed Riverlands? Vote for "No change"
Want a more organized, less destroyed Riverlands, an active siege, and big army camps? Vote for "Dutch's Proposal"
Want something totally different? Reply to the thread with your reasoning

 

[DutchGuard]

Actually, there is one issue with the later dates, which I have to thank Enah for mentioning. The tourney which we have built at Highgarden is for the celebration of Renly and Margaery's wedding, which takes place on 1/5/299. Surely by 3/3/299, two months later, the tourney would have finished. Indeed, it would have finished by the time the comet appears one month later on 2/1/299.

The way I see it, the tourney at Highgarden is anachronous to both the burning of the Seven at Dragonstone, and the comet.

 

[Enah]

I don’t recall the wedding being in his coronation? Do you have direct book quotes or just guesses and wiki articles? I only have ACoK and ADwD in my possession so I have to rely on people who do have the books

 

[Enah]

Also The tourney of hg is being used as an army/recruiting camp as well, not just left overs

 

[Adorkabley]

I prefer the current timeline and the rekt riverlands.

 

[EStoop]

From the start of the server we have had the setting between book 1 and book 2, how that is implemented has varied wildly throughout the years but it has never been set on a single date. We have never been consistent in the exact date, and I don't think enforcing one is going to happen properly since we already have a hard enough time enforcing canon without taking the date into account.

Renly's camp for example has moved from Highgarden to Horn Hill, only to be eventually planned near Hutcheson (and it's still not build). I don't think we even considered camps for all other armies and raiding parties except for Mance.

In the Riverlands there is no path of destruction recognisable, apart from a few projects scattered along the Red Fork. We never enforced it, because noone bothered to keep track of it. By now it's nearly impossible to do so without redoing large parts of the Riverlands, as some projects are in the wrong location. I'm sure the same could be said about the other regions of the continent, but that is an entirely different discussion.

Does it matter on what day exactly the server is? The average visitor will not notice the mentioned disparities for either point of view, most of the time we ourselves don't even notice them. The War of the Five Kings is a chaotic time, and wether one part of the map is a month further into the story than another part of the map is a very minor issue in my opinion, as long as the broader picture makes sense (which it does not at the current time, but that is mainly because of project placement and no enforcement of canon).

 

[JohanKR850]

Setting up an ingame timeline with warps for the guests would be nice, some more hardcore fans will also love it. That way they also know we have war camps (when we get them).

 

[DutchGuard]

Enah Here is what I could find:

Spoiler: Renly's Wedding Timeline

AGoT Ch 69. Tyrion 9
Tywin says:

"Renly Baratheon wed Margaery Tyrell at Highgarden this fortnight past, and now he has claimed the crown. The bride’s father and brothers have bent the knee and sworn him their swords.”

So, regardless of when he claims the crown, his wedding was a fortnight (two weeks), before this conversation. In the same chapter Tyrion reflects: "Robb Stark had reached Riverrun days and days ago.

Days and days is not an exact measure of time by any means, but it would be fair to say that Robb attacked the Lannisters at Riverrun around the same time as the Battle of the Green Fork, that is, after all, Robbs strategy; to distract Tywin with Roose while he breaks the siege. When you factor in road travel speed rates, which the timeline also does, it places the Second Battle at Riverrun at 7 days before we hear the news about Renly and Margaery's marriage.

By that logic, a fortnight before the chapter we learn about the marriage is 7 days before Robb retakes Riverrun.

Besides all of that, someone in AGoT Ch 69. Tyrion 9 would have mentioned the appearance of the comet, but nobody does. Any way you look at it, the comet appears several weeks after Renly's wedding.

You can spin the headcanon however you want, it's your build. Maybe they just had a super long tourney, there have been tourney's which lasted seven days. Highgarden looks great with active tourney grounds, I'm not saying you have to take it down just because we put some pixel art in the skybox.

That brings me to EStoop and his suggestions.

In the Riverlands there is no path of destruction recognisable, apart from a few projects scattered along the Red Fork. We never enforced it, because noone bothered to keep track of it. By now it's nearly impossible to do so without redoing large parts of the Riverlands, as some projects are in the wrong location.

AFAIK, pretty much the whole region affected by the war is having a major overhaul at some point, and is exactly why I started this thread. The region requires that we choose a more specific date than what we have been working with.

I agree that the average visitor will not notice. The average visitor doesn't notice a lot of things that we spend days deliberating and fussing over. I do think though, that if we still plan on eventually implementing an RPG, that we need to set the stage in the Riverlands accurately. It would be awesome to roleplay as Arya travelling through a war torn Riverlands, but to what extent is it war torn, and where?

wether one part of the map is a month further into the story than another part of the map is a very minor issue

I agree with this. I have no issue with regions being on separate timelines. My OP is concerned principally with the Riverlands, I personally don't care if other regions are in other places on the timeline. Highgarden can have a wedding tourney, Winterfell can be a ruin, whatever looks coolest and works best for the RPG.

Then, in large part, this decision is up to the leaders of the these Riverlands projects: Riverrun, the Twins, Central Riverlands, Harrenhal, the Crossroads, Maidenpool, Raventree Hall, and the Whispering Wood.

Whatever is decided, I'd be quite happy to pick apart the canon and figure out what areas are ruined, where armies are camped, what battle lines are drawn. Remember, this is all for fun! My aim isn't to rustle anyones jimmies. We're all in this together.

 

[DutchGuard]

EDIT***NOTE*** The maps in this post have been superseded, please check the latest map post in this thread.

Okay so here is the Riverlands after the comet appears, on 3/3/299, when Stannis burns the statues of the Seven, which I think is more or less the "unofficial" date of the server.

Green: Unaffected
Yellow: Evidence of raids, or battles
Orange: Heavy raids, castles either captured or besieged
Red: Heavy damages, where Gregor, Amory, and Vargo have concentrated their raiding.



Here are the movements of the major armies, locations of army camps, and battle sites.



A few notes on the status of a few locations affected by the war:
Riverrun: Siege has been broken by Robb, his camp is now outside the walls of Riverrun as they prepare to invade the Westerlands. There should be evidence of the Lannisters siege and camps. Immediate areas are thoroughly sacked and burned.
Harrenhal: Tywin is camped out within the walls with his army.
The Twins: Roose is camped with his army while he marries Walda Frey
Raventree Hall: The castle has been recaptured by Lord Blackwood, the castle is not necessarily a total ruin, but it was captured by Tywin and Kevan. Blackwood Vale has been thoroughly ransacked.
Stone Hedge: Burned down by Gregor, a smoking ruin. Lord Bracken has retaken it after Robb lifts the siege at Riverrun.
Pinkmaiden: Burnt out by Gregor, the surrounding lands are heavily ruined.
Stoney Sept: Some evidence of raids around the town, it is later in the series described as having been attacked during this time.
Acorn Hall: Evidence of raiding, largely protected by the dense forest and Beric's forces.
Atranta: No canon info, likely was besieged or captured, possibly just mass destruction of lands and villages with no attempt to take the castle. Has since be recaptured.
Wayfarer's Rest: No canon info, was likely captured, has since been recaptured.
Maidenpool: Evidence of Lannister raids.
Saltpans: Evidence of Lannister raids.
Lolliston: Evidence of Lannister raids.
Crossroads: Evidence of Tywin's former camp, the nearby village is destroyed.
Darry: Two options for this one, 1. Captured by Tywin, and is now recaptured by Darry forces; various damages. or 2. Captured by Tywin, recaptured by Darry men, and now recaptured again by Gregor, heavy damages.
Lychester: A completed build which shows no damage atm. Should be updated to show heavy damage in its surrounding lands. The keep may still be intact.
Willow Wood: Right in the line of fire, should be updated to reflect heavy damages specifically mentioned by canon in that area.
Old Tumbler's Falls (the new one has moved further south to Corne): Should be updated to reflect heavy damages. Town to be renamed.
Hogg Hall and Wode: Near total destruction.
Lord Harroways Town: This is a weird one, it may have gone unscathed, not sure. It was likely raided, and rebuilt by the time Arya gets there in ASoS.
God's Eye Town: Is marked in red, as it is burned as Arya travels through it. I don't know what Ricardus is planning, but this area, and indeed all of Arya's route, needs a more detailed map.

EDIT: Updated map.

 

[Ric]

God's Eye Town: Is marked in red, as it is burned as Arya travels through it. I don't know what @Ricardus is planning, but this area, and indeed all of Arya's route, needs a more detailed map.

When Arya arrives at the town it doesn't seem to me like it is burned tbh. But maybe sacked. Arya describes it just as being abandoned, no boats or food left behind apart from a few chickens. It is when Lorch arrives that the town is set on fire. So if Arya is still not there, the town is still whole, but probably already abandoned I would suggest.

Spoiler: ACOK - Arya IV

Woth was shouting at her to help search, so she did, peering into boathouses and sheds while her horse grazed along the shore. They found some sails, some nails, buckets of tar gone hard, and a mother cat with a litter of new-born kittens. But no boats.

The town was as dark as any forest when Yoren and the others reappeared. "Tower's empty," he said. "Lord's gone off to fight maybe, or to get his smallfolk to safety, no telling. Not a horse or pig left in town, but we'll eat. Saw a goose running loose, and some chickens, and there's good fish in the Gods Eye."

"The boats are gone," Arya reported.

[...]

The fire leapt from one house to another. Arya saw a tree consumed, the flames creeping across its branches until it stood against the night in robes of living orange. Everyone was awake now, manning the catwalks or struggling with the frightened animals below. She could hear Yoren shouting commands. Something bumped against her leg, and she glanced down to discover the crying girl clutching her. "Get away!" She wrenched her leg free. "What are you doing up here? Run and hide someplace, you stupid." She shoved the girl away.

 

[DutchGuard]

When Arya arrives at the town it doesn't seem to me like it is burned tbh. But maybe sacked. Arya describes it just as being abandoned, no boats or food left behind apart from a few chickens. It is when Lorch arrives that the town is set on fire. So if Arya is still not there, the town is still whole, but probably already abandoned I would suggest.

It is up to whoever builds the town. According to the timeline, the town burns on 2/28/299. The Seven are burned at Dragonstone on 3/3/299, so if you wanted to set the God's Eye town on the same day, the town would be in ruins.

 

[Ric]

It is up to whoever builds the town. According to the timeline, the town burns on 2/28/299. The Seven are burned at Dragonstone on 3/3/299, so if you wanted to set the God's Eye town on the same day, the town would be in ruins.

Nice, I completely missed the specific day

So, just to summarize your notes on the map post, if we are to follow this the projects that would be outdated are:

• Atranta (abandoned project)
• Crossroads Inn
• Darry
• Harrenhal (future server build)
• Hogg Hall
• Lolliston
• Lychester lands
• Maidenpool (already open for redo)
• Old Tumblers Fall
• Pinkmaiden
• Raventree Hall
• Riverrun (future server build)
• Saltpans
• The Twins (future server build)
• Wayfarer's Rest (abandoned build)
• Willow Wood

Also, I'm not sure if those here would or would not be outdated:

• Acorn Hall?
• Stone Hedge? (adding more destruction to the lands?)
• Stoney Sept? (awaiting for post-approval - would need the adding of some destruction to outer parts of the lands?)
• Lord Harroways Town?