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Yep that's mostly correct.
A few things:
The castles of Pinkmaiden, Stone Hedge, and Lychester are fine, the surrounding lands need more destruction.
Stoney Sept could definitely use some evidence of raiding along its northern edge.
Acorn Hall is a special case, it looks quite outdated so if it ever gets updated, some bandit camps can be sprinkled throughout the woods surrounding it, which I think would be fine.
Lord Harroways Town is a total enigma, a bit like Fairmarket. Canon just doesn't mention it specifically being affected one way or another. I can't image Lord Harroways Town being unaffected because its so close to the Crossroads. We know from later in the series (ASoS) that at least the tower and chimneys are still standing.
PS: Having said that, and considering Fairmarket is still WIP, maybe EStoop is happy to add some damaged areas to his southern sprawl? Maybe its the perfect get-out clause for having to WE those fields
As far as I know the area around Fairmarket has barely been affected by the war. Most locations that have been sacked are between the Red Fork and the God's Eye, and even then there is a fair amount of lordships that have been unscathed. The sacking seems to be oppertunistic: Most castles that are sacked or taken are either because their lord (and retinue) is away fighting someplace else (Raventree Hall, Stonehedge, Pinkmaiden, Darry) or because they are horribly underdefended (Harrenhal, Maidenpool). It should be noted the castles are not by definition ruinous after the raids, as Pinkmaiden is able to hold prisoners later in the war and lord Mooton manages to hide in his castle at Maidenpool during the sack of the town.
Tywin seems to target the prominent castles and families of the Riverlands. Lychester and Acorn Hall are both unharmed later on in the story. The raids by Gregor, Amory and the Brave Companions seem to be focussed on small villages, holdfasts and towns, and supposed to forage the Riverlands and burn everything they do not take with them (including villagers, apparantly).
It's evident they do not venture too far north of the Red Fork, as they are effectively trapped in the Riverlands when Edmure defends the fords of the Red Fork.
How Lord Harroway's fits into this all I do not know. I think it is fair to assume the town did not get the Maidenpool treatment, as Arya mentions moldy thatch roofs and a daub and wattle inn in the submerged town. Those would have been burned or damaged in a raid and I don't think enough time has passed to render them moldy. However, while the town might have survived the Lannisters, it's well within the realm of possibilities the surrounding area got raided. We know the knight of Stoney Sept died at the hand of raiders, likely because he rode out to defend his peasants. They could have tried the same at Lord Harroway's Town but the lord decided to remain inside. Saltpans, also close to the Ruby Ford, doesn't get raided until the end of the war.
Those are all excellent points, and I will make adjustments to the map, but I just want to add a few things:
Pinkmaiden and Stonehedge are said to have been "burnt out" which I'm assuming means that they were set to the torch, badly enough that the garrison fled or surrendered.
Raventree Hall "fell", and Darry is "recaptured" neither term specifies a level of damage. If a bunch of Lannisters show up to the doorstep and demand to take the castle, claiming they have slain the lord, the castles might just have been surrendered to them. It's up to those project leads to decide what level of damage, if any, is appropriate.
The reason I assumed there was some raiding going on between the Red and Blue forks is because of the Blackwood Vale, which is (or at least we think is) north of Riverrun, and north of the Red Fork. I had presumed that Tywin and Kevan after taking it head east towards the next available crossing, and I've used the only existing crossing on the Red Fork (at Sherrer, which btw is in the wrong place) to show their route. We should make a crossing on the Red Fork somewhere between Grell and Stonehedge so that the route can be re-mapped to cross back south of the Red Fork, leaving the remainder of the areas between Red and Green untouched.
Acorn Hall seems untouched, as you say, when Arya visits it in ASoS. I haven't found anywhere that describes Lychester as unharmed, could you point me in the right direction? It sits right in the firing line for where the Riverlands should be badly pillaged. I agree that the Lannisters might not bother taking the keep, but Gregor etc would certainly have ransacked the town and put the surrounding lands to the torch.
On that note it is worth noting that when Robb retakes Riverrun, Tywin's supply line is cut off, which is mentioned specifically when he hears the news, and also mentioned later when Robb and his allies are strategizing. There is no mention of supplies coming from the Crownlands or anywhere else, so its likely that Tywin has to rely a lot more on raiding parties to supply his forces.
For Harroway I think we're just going to have to headcanon that the town is unharmed, and Tywin sacks it without burning it.
I think we could focus on different styles of 'foraging' to show the passage of different Westermen groups.
Gregor burns what is flammable, as does Amory Lorch.
I think to maintain discipline in the main body of his army, Tywin would not allow wanton looting and would instead send detachments to seize grain, foodstuffs, animals etc from an area, rather than have part of his army caught up in a riotous sacking of a town.
Letting an army have their way with a town such as maidenpool would have taken up days, as discipline and reorganising troops would have been difficult if half the army is hungover.
Also Dutch, you've switched between two maps of Gregor's route, including Ser Amory's path within it.
They are very much two separate raiding bands, with Gregor remaining around the northern and western shores of the Gods Eye, while Ser Amory heads far south and is the one who burns the earthen halls of House Wode, but fails to burn Sow's Horn, of House Hogg.
Ser Amory makes a pretty big mistake here, imo, as he gets greedy in his raiding and attacks Crownlands houses, or places more closely tied to House Hayford and other satellites of Kings Landing than Riverrun.
On the snow note. The current North is far too snowed over for canon. When Bran describes his trek north months later, there is no mention of snow, instead there are heavy rains that would wash away any trace of snowfall.
When Jon and Bran are at Queenscrown, both make no mention of snow, and there are apples ripening near the inn.
There are mentions of meadows north of the wall, which implies only light snow cover.
While one could say, 'its only a light covering' how it has been interpreted in old builds, Northern Mountain Clans and Bear Island, is generally as a heavy snow, with paths dug layers into the white stuff
While one could say, 'its only a light covering' how it has been interpreted in old builds, Northern Mountain Clans and Bear Island, is generally as a heavy snow, with paths dug layers into the white stuff
Coming from an exceptionally snowy part of the US, that's not really unusual. There's a lot of local variation in snowfall, and it's not too uncommon to get blizzards as early as October or as late as May. I think it makes sense for those two locations to have heavy snows, the former because mountains in general have a lot of precipitation due to the orographic effect, and the latter because it's in a subpolar oceanic climate and would also have more precipitation than the mainland.
Keep in mind that you can have rains wash away snow and then have a blizzard within the course of a week, during the volatile seasons where air temperature fluctuates above/below the freezing point.
I think to maintain discipline in the main body of his army, Tywin would not allow wanton looting and would instead send detachments to seize grain, foodstuffs, animals etc from an area, rather than have part of his army caught up in a riotous sacking of a town.
Letting an army have their way with a town such as maidenpool would have taken up days, as discipline and reorganising troops would have been difficult if half the army is hungover.
I have to disagree, as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, Tywin is just as ruthless. We know that the village at the Crossroads is burned down while Tywin is camped there. I think it's part of Tywin's strategy to punish Catelyn for kidnapping Tyrion to cause as much damage and destruction as possible.
AGoT Ch.53 Bran 6:
Lord Tywin Lannister was marching on the Eyrie, burning and slaughtering as he went.
The inn and its stables were much as he remembered, though little more than tumbled stones and blackened foundations remained where the rest of the village had stood.
I don't think he would have sent half his army to raid Maidenpool, just a small contingent. I think it's likely they only set the lands and villages around Maidenpool to torch, and it isn't until later that the town itself is burned.
This is intentional, you can see the reasoning for it in this post. For Tywin to have closed the Kingsroad and move north towards Harrenhal, his forces must come south up from the God's Eye. Of course, no one is going to know the difference between the burning and pillaging of one force vs another, so it is of little consequence what actual route they take. The map showing levels of destruction for each area is more important.
On the snow note. The current North is far too snowed over for canon. When Bran describes his trek north months later, there is no mention of snow, instead there are heavy rains that would wash away any trace of snowfall.
When Jon and Bran are at Queenscrown, both make no mention of snow, and there are apples ripening near the inn.
There are mentions of meadows north of the wall, which implies only light snow cover.
While one could say, 'its only a light covering' how it has been interpreted in old builds, Northern Mountain Clans and Bear Island, is generally as a heavy snow, with paths dug layers into the white stuff
I had a look into this when it was mentioned a few posts back.
AGoT Ch 1. Bran 1 (near Winterfell):
His father took off the man’s head with a single sure stroke. Blood sprayed out across the snow, as red as summerwine. One of the horses reared and had to be restrained to keep from bolting. Bran could not take his eyes off the blood. The snows around the stump drank it eagerly, reddening as he watched.
Made another map, which I think addresses all the points made since the last one.
Green: Unaffected Yellow: Evidence of raids, or battles Orange: Heavy raids, castles either captured or besieged Red: Heavy damages, where Gregor, Amory, and Vargo have concentrated their raiding.
There shouldn't be any pass by Red Fork from Riverrun to at leats the Kneeling Man Inn because from Jaime chapters we know that north shores of Red Fork are wild and high above river surface.
Downriver, the rising sun shimmered against the wind-whipped surface of the river. The south shore was red clay, smooth as any road. Smaller streams fed into the greater, and the rotting trunks of drowned trees clung to the banks. The north shore was wilder. High rocky bluffs rose twenty feet above them, crowned by stands of beech, oak, and chestnut. Jaime spied a watchtower on the heights ahead, growing taller with every stroke of the oars. Long before they were upon it, he knew that it stood abandoned, its weathered stones overgrown with climbing roses.
That's a great point Nomorefun_, but I think there would probably still be some crossing points. The quote doesn't specify that this entire section of the Red Fork has "high rocky bluffs", just the area where Jaime is making these observations.
Alright, now that I've had some time to sit down and write this, here we go.
Proposal to
Officially Recognize the Date of 3/3/299 AC Within the Timeline of Events of A Song of Ice and Fire
as the Official Time-Setting of the Server
1. Rationale
1.1 Our current answer for "Where on the timeline is the server?" has always been "Between Books 1 and 2."
This is problematic for the following reasons:
- Arya I of A Clash of Kings (ACOK) takes place before several events at the end of A Game of Thrones (AGOT). This is not uncommon in the A Song of Ice and Fire (ASOIAF) series; chapters presented in chronological order are the exception and not the rule. Therefore, using the books to define a point on the timeline is imprecise.
- The Burning of the Seven at Dragonstone takes place in Chapter 10 of ACOK, an event we have chosen to depict. This event decidedly does not take place between books 1 and 2.
1.2 Why do we need to be more precise?
Armies mobilize very quickly at the start of the War of the Five Kings, and George R.R. Martin (GRRM) is fairly specific about their movements (if paradoxically at times). By choosing a set date, we can better coordinate the placements of these army encampments, as well as more accurately depict the levels of destruction in the Riverlands, an area which is re-visited throughout the series. Without choosing a set date, it becomes very difficult to determine where the armies of the Starks and Lannisters are exactly. This affects the depiction of the journeys of many major POV characters, especially Arya, Catelyn, Robb, Tyrion, and Jaime.
1.3 The Riverlands are uncoordinated.
Merrydown Dell looks like a nuclear blast has decimated it, and nearby Lychester looks completely untouched.
Riverrun looks pristine, yet Stone Hedge has been reduced to a smoking ruin.
A master plan must be devised for the region lest the asynchronocity of the region be grandfathered in to all future projects and updates. Choosing a precise date is the necessary starting point.
2. Proposed Date
The date of the server is 3/3/299 AC, as noted in this widely accepted fan-made timeline of the events of the books. Date format is MM/DD/YYY.
Sansa II (Ch. 18) and Davos I (Ch. 10) of ACOK both take place on this date, and so can be used interchangeably with the date itself to denote time setting.
3. Reasoning
3.1. Evidence from existing builds (and textures).
- The red comet in the sky appears on 1/23/299 and disappears on 10/1/299, so a date must be chosen in this range.
- The Burning of the Seven at Dragonstone takes place on 3/3/299, which we have chosen to depict.
3.2. Why this date suits a coherent state of play in the Riverlands.
- Tywin, Robb, and Roose are all camped out in specific locations and their paths at this point are well defined.
- The fighting and destruction is still concentrated in the central Riverlands. The major Riverlands urban centres of Fairmarket, Stoney Sept, and Maidenpool are all almost entirely unaffected.
4. Potential Conflicts
4.1 Higharden: The build leaders have chosen to depict the wedding celebrations between Renly and Margaery. This wedding takes place before the comet appears.
AGoT Ch 69. Tyrion 9
Tywin says:
"Renly Baratheon wed Margaery Tyrell at Highgarden this fortnight past, and now he has claimed the crown. The bride’s father and brothers have bent the knee and sworn him their swords.”
So, regardless of when he claims the crown, his wedding was a fortnight (two weeks), before this conversation. In the same chapter Tyrion reflects: "Robb Stark had reached Riverrun days and days ago.
Days and days is not an exact measure of time by any means, but it would be fair to say that Robb attacked the Lannisters at Riverrun around the same time as the Battle of the Green Fork, that is, after all, Robbs strategy; to distract Tywin with Roose while he breaks the siege. When you factor in road travel speed rates, which the timeline also does, it places the Second Battle at Riverrun at 7 days before we hear the news about Renly and Margaery's marriage.
By that logic, a fortnight before the chapter we learn about the marriage is 7 days before Robb retakes Riverrun.
Besides all of that, someone in AGoT Ch 69. Tyrion 9 would have mentioned the appearance of the comet, but nobody does. Any way you look at it, the comet appears several weeks after Renly's wedding.
Who's to say they weren't still partying it up two months later? The Tyrell's would have been riding that power high as long as possible. Enah has also mentioned that the tourney grounds are being used as an army/recruiting camp after the wedding.
Setting the date to 3/3/299 would have zero impact on the existing build.
4.2 Renly's camp: Renly isn't forced to mobilize until Stannis attacks Storm's End, which doesn't happen until 5/1/299, almost two months after the proposed date. For this reason, the current placement of the main camp is totally fine. Renly is at this point still leisurely making his way around the Reach, gathering forces.
Note: These are the conflicts that have been discussed in this thread so far, please if you know of any other potential conflicts, leave a comment and I will add it to this list.
5. Conclusion
Not determining a date makes planning the Riverlands impossible. The date of 3/3/299 has no impact on any existing builds (that I know of yet). The present range for alternate proposed dates (if one chooses to ignore Dragonstone), would need to be between 1/23/299 (when the comet appears) and 5/1/299 (when Renly mobilizes).
I would like to leave discussion of this proposal open for at least a month before any decision is made by the moderators.
I’m a fan of the date being 3/3/299. However, I am admittedly biased and so I’m not particularly invested in issues of Renly’s camp.
I’m more interested in making sure that the Riverlands is properly represented, as well as the Crownlands Islands/Gullet
I’m a fan of the date being 3/3/299. However, I am admittedly biased and so I’m not particularly invested in issues of Renly’s camp.
I’m more interested in making sure that the Riverlands is properly represented, as well as the Crownlands Islands/Gullet
Thank you for your comments Aeks. I want this date clarification to be a creative starting point for future builds, not to hold anyone back. If ever someone wanted to add a time-sensitive feature to a build which didn't work with the date of 3/3/299, let's say, the Battle of the Blackwater, they should not have their idea rejected only because of the official date, but for other, more substantive reasons.
I've decided to simplify the above map to just show the paths taken by each major invading force based on canon info. This way, each project which has one of these paths intersecting it can judge for themselves how best to depict the passage of these forces.
Yellow: Tywin Lannister
After setting out from Golden Tooth and taking Riverrun they continue on to Raventree Hall and Harrenhal. After taking Harrenhal, they meet Roose Bolton at the Battle of the Green Fork, then return to the Crossroads and set up camp there briefly before returning to Harrenhal. They march very quickly. Purple: Gregor Clegane
Has been raiding the Western riverlands [Wendish Town, Sherrer] for some time before taking Pinkmaiden, he re-joins Tywin's invading army after taking Stone Hedge, sacks Darry at some point, and begins raiding out of Harrenhal once Tywin is camped there. He is headed around the east coast of the God's Eye and eventually captures Arya there. (note: this is in slight contradiction to canon, as Arya can "see a small wooded island off to the northeast" before she is captured by Gregor in CoK Ch 19, which then contradicts Arya's route as shown in Lands of Ice and Fire where she travels around the east coast of the God's Eye. For a variety of reasons, it makes more sense for her to be travelling along the east coast so we'll go with that.) Orange: Vargo Hoat
Raiding around Harrenhal, might be working his way towards Maidenpool. Red: Amory Lorch
Attacks Sow's Horn, burns the bridge on Hayford road before heading up to the God's Eye Town where he attacks Arya & Co. Green: Roose Bolton
Marches south to meet Tywin at the battle of the Green Fork before returning to camp outside the Twins White: Robb Stark
Marches south through Hag's Mire and Sevenstreams to reach the Battle of the Whispering Wood where he captures Jaime before retaking Riverrun.
I'd say prioritise the book canon, not the lands of ice and fire and instead have Arya going along the western shore based on the North East island fragment.
After a second review of canon, I'm really torn. Here's all the stuff below, and we can try to come to some sort of agreement.
Supporting evidence for Arya travelling around the west shore of the God's Eye.
- "From up here, she could see a small wooded island off to the northeast." -CoK Ch.19 Arya V
- "Yet they walked all that day and most of the next before at last they reached the fringes of Lord Tywin’s army, encamped west of the castle
amidst the scorched remains of a town." -CoK Ch.26 Arya VI
Supporting evidence for Arya travelling around the east shore of the God's Eye.
- Map in Lands of Ice and Fire (Arya is blue, and yeah, there are a few other issues with this map)
"Woth reported a wooden bridge half a mile downstream, but someone had burned it up. Yoren peeled a sourleaf off the bale. “Might be we could swim the horses over, maybe the donkeys, but there’s no way we’ll get those wagons across. And there’s smoke to the north and west, more fires, could be this side o’ the river’s the place we want to be.” He picked up a long stick and drew a circle in the mud, a line trailing down from it. “That’s Gods Eye, with the river flowing south. We’re here.” He poked a hole beside the line of the river, under the circle. “We can’t go round west of the lake, like I thought. East takes us back to the kingsroad.” He moved the stick up to where the line and circle met. “Near as I recall, there’s a town here." -CoK Ch.14 Arya IV
“The boats are gone,” Arya reported.
“We could patch the bottom of that rowboat,” said Koss.
“Might do for four o’ us,” Yoren said.
“There’s nails,” Lommy pointed out. “And there’s trees all around. We could build us all boats.”
Yoren spat. “You know anything ’bout boat-building, dyer’s boy?” Lommy looked blank.
“A raft,” suggested Gendry. “Anyone can build a raft, and long poles for pushing.”
Yoren looked thoughtful. “Lake’s too deep to pole across, but if we stayed to the shallows near shore . . . it’d mean leaving the wagons. Might be that’s best. I’ll sleep on it.”
" -CoK Ch.14 Arya IV
- Originally I thought the above quotes supported the idea that Arya travels east as there is no way for her and the crew to cross the river to go west, but the first quote specifically mentions that the main reason they don't go west is because they have wagons with them, which Arya and gang don't later on, meaning they could have swam across the river. It's just a very odd omission on GRRM's part that he never mentions how Arya and gang get across that river.
- In any case, the observation that the area to the north and west of the river is on fire, which is a pretty clear indicator that some shit is going down there.
- Above all, my biggest reservation about Arya going around the west shore of the God's Eye is because it would mean eventually updating Willow Wood to reflect Gregor's raiding and pillaging, which is extensive:
"All the other places they’d come upon had been empty and desolate. Farms, villages, castles, septs, barns, it made no matter. If it could burn, the Lannisters had burned it; if it could die, they’d killed it. They had even set the woods ablaze where they could, though the leaves were still green and wet from recent rains, and the fires had not spread." -CoK Ch.19 Arya V
One option is that we just leave Willow Wood untouched for the time being, and allow it to exist incongruously with its surroundings, which I don't have any issue with.
As Nicodemus is applying for House Chambers, on the southwestern shore of the God's Eye, now is the time to be determining these routes and levels of destruction.
I think I have an idea of keeping Arya going in the western shore (what is important because of later descriptions of the north-western shore and area of the God's Eye and because of the Mountains path), and at the same time saving most or all of Willow Wood.
What Arya describes is "All the other places they’d come upon had been empty and desolate. Farms, villages, castles, septs, barns, it made no matter. If it could burn, the Lannisters had burned it; if it could die, they’d killed it. They had even set the woods ablaze where they could, though the leaves were still green and wet from recent rains, and the fires had not spread." The parts I highlighted show that the fires were very localized on the places attacked and didn't spread around - that already saves most of the Willow Wood forest.
But I think it could be viable to have the mountain going around Willow Wood completely, like in the map bellow. It might seem strange, but I think it's reasonable to think Gregor would go around pillaging and looking for Beric rather than just follow the lakeshore to the south and then go the opposite way. Also in this way the route of destruction he would leave behind doesn't pass through any completed area. We can make a camp for him in the Chambers project-area or in the one to the west. He would then meet with Arya later, we could say that neither of them has gone north to Willow Wood yet.
Purple is the path in the current map and pink is my rough proposal.
The destructed areas Arya sees can be destroyed by the Mountain after he leaves his camp but before she passes through the area. This would also mean, probably, that the God's Eye Town wouldn't be attacked yet, but maybe Arya and the Night's Watch candidates could be placed nearby on the road to it (would be a nice detail imo!).
Of course the idea of having Gregors camp on Chambers depends on what Nicodemus thinks and probably the opinion of the mod team. Maybe Veggie might want to add something too, as he lead Willow Wood iirc.
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