Finn01
Envoy
That mix is fairly common though? I don't think it looks bad tbh.
Wall Castle Renaissance Update Thread
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The Spring 2023 edition of The Rookery is now out! Take a look to see the latest builds, guides, progress and development updates on the upcoming 1.18.2 switch. You can read it here:
https://indd.adobe.com/view/f943da18-ed77-4d55-845d-fee9bfa14247
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Quick question, is the lake north of the Wall at Deep Lake going to be filled in? And more broadly, will there be any kind of work to that side of the wall as part of this update? It pretty plain looking, could use some TLC, maybe evidence of tree clearing, or places where trees haven't been cleared and are growing close to the wall, evidence of campsites, trails, wildling activity, etc.
Scub's pitch for his Deep Lake update included having the lake north of the Wall. The book's read "Good Queen Alysanne had suggested that the Watch replace it with a smaller, newer castle at a spot only seven miles east, where the Wall curved along the shore of a beautiful green lake." So it seems like it could be read either way. There was a lake north of the Nighfort which we've moved to north of Deep Lake now.
Scub had an idea for a marshy area next to the updated Deep Lake (maybe the main lake's watercourse was interrupted by the Wall). Carci made a script for it which turned out ok.
As for wider north of the Wall updates, yes it would be a good idea to add in signs of forest clearing and wildling camps would be fun. We've started adding that in at Eastwatch. The top of the Wall battlements are proving a major time sink to make interesting, trying to finish them off now while Eastwatch is finalised and then progress with updating the remaining Wall castles and completing Rimegate.
Scub had an idea for a marshy area next to the updated Deep Lake (maybe the main lake's watercourse was interrupted by the Wall). Carci made a script for it which turned out ok.
As for wider north of the Wall updates, yes it would be a good idea to add in signs of forest clearing and wildling camps would be fun. We've started adding that in at Eastwatch. The top of the Wall battlements are proving a major time sink to make interesting, trying to finish them off now while Eastwatch is finalised and then progress with updating the remaining Wall castles and completing Rimegate.
Finn01
Envoy
The lake has a tributary that flows out to the west and into the Milkwater - hence the lake must be north of the Wall. I like the muskeg bog too as a replacement for the old lake - it would be good to have some dead trees and small live ones just sitting too, Hjaalmarch vibes.
Did you have a quote for the detail about the lake flowing into the Milkwater? Though I suppose it makes sense either way, just that we've already got this lake with a Milkwater tributary.
Finn01
Envoy
I don't have a quote, but here's the bit from the wiki:
The southern shore of a beautiful green lake implies that the lake is to the North of the wall - and it states that a tributary flows west to the Milkwater. I think that lake to the north is probably what they thought would be the lake from which the tributary flows - the way I read it is that the tributary flows from the lake at Deep Lake.
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After a quick review of the sources we used when creating the map, I think it's possible the lake to the north with the tributary is supposed to be Deep Lake. The source for the tributary on the wiki is Lands of Ice and Fire which contains the maps we used for painting the map. As these maps are semi-canon I think we can make the call either way.
The lake is described as green in Storm of Swords Bran IV:
The lake is described as green in Storm of Swords Bran IV:
Oakenshield Update
Canon Issues?
N/A
Oakenshield has minimal canon references, main notable mention in ADWD was that Tormund would garrison it with his free folk forces. I have been wondering how Jon planned to use the abandoned Wall castles once re-occupied, given the gates are blocked and stairs likely collapsed. Indicates maybe the wall stairs would need to be in a state that could be salvaged somehow, otherwise it begs the question how they would scale the Wall to keep a look out.
Cosmetic Improvements
Suggest:
- reducing the size of the big wooden platform at the gate, landscaping the area with piling dirt/rocks seems easier stronger than constructing a wooden platform that would've probably collapsed in the years since it was abandoned.
- the rope/net handrails probably wouldn't still be intact, suggesting to swap to wood
- adding snow on top of exposed blocks,
- adding the white wood where adjacent to snow
- tidying up the gradient with northern cobble varients
- incorporating MotM pebbles as a gradient between snow and northern pebble
- add a Oak tree stump
Errors
Some snow in the basement
Structural improvements
Aside from updating the wooden platform, the other structures should be fine once gradient is updated.
Update test at /warp wallupdate
Canon Issues?
N/A
Oakenshield has minimal canon references, main notable mention in ADWD was that Tormund would garrison it with his free folk forces. I have been wondering how Jon planned to use the abandoned Wall castles once re-occupied, given the gates are blocked and stairs likely collapsed. Indicates maybe the wall stairs would need to be in a state that could be salvaged somehow, otherwise it begs the question how they would scale the Wall to keep a look out.
Cosmetic Improvements
Suggest:
- reducing the size of the big wooden platform at the gate, landscaping the area with piling dirt/rocks seems easier stronger than constructing a wooden platform that would've probably collapsed in the years since it was abandoned.
- the rope/net handrails probably wouldn't still be intact, suggesting to swap to wood
- adding snow on top of exposed blocks,
- adding the white wood where adjacent to snow
- tidying up the gradient with northern cobble varients
- incorporating MotM pebbles as a gradient between snow and northern pebble
- add a Oak tree stump
Errors
Some snow in the basement
Structural improvements
Aside from updating the wooden platform, the other structures should be fine once gradient is updated.
Update test at /warp wallupdate
On a tear with these updates.
Woodswatch-by-the-Pool Update
Canon Issues?
Woodswatch's only reference in the text was from Donal Noye saying that "Harma Dogshead was seen at Woodswatch-by-the-Pool". So the most we have is that it watches woods and it is next to a pool. The current Woodswatch already has both, so I don't think any major changes are needed there.
Cosmetic Improvements
Suggest:
- Most of the stone keeps seem to be collapsed, but it's not clear where the fallen stone has gone, so I'm suggesting to add more piles of northern cobble/pebbles in and around the ruins.
- the tunnel floors are mostly terrain stone, would swap to cobble/pebbles/fallen leaves
- adding some greenery/trees around the edge of the pool.
- adding snow on top of exposed blocks,
- adding the white wood where adjacent to snow
- tidying up the gradient with northern cobble varients
- incorporating MotM pebbles as a gradient between snow and northern pebble
Errors
Some snow in the basement, food on a plate
Structural improvements
The main structures are heavily ruined, focus will just be showing where the collapsed parts went along with updating the gradient.
Update test at /warp wallupdate
Woodswatch-by-the-Pool Update
Canon Issues?
Woodswatch's only reference in the text was from Donal Noye saying that "Harma Dogshead was seen at Woodswatch-by-the-Pool". So the most we have is that it watches woods and it is next to a pool. The current Woodswatch already has both, so I don't think any major changes are needed there.
Cosmetic Improvements
Suggest:
- Most of the stone keeps seem to be collapsed, but it's not clear where the fallen stone has gone, so I'm suggesting to add more piles of northern cobble/pebbles in and around the ruins.
- the tunnel floors are mostly terrain stone, would swap to cobble/pebbles/fallen leaves
- adding some greenery/trees around the edge of the pool.
- adding snow on top of exposed blocks,
- adding the white wood where adjacent to snow
- tidying up the gradient with northern cobble varients
- incorporating MotM pebbles as a gradient between snow and northern pebble
Errors
Some snow in the basement, food on a plate
Structural improvements
The main structures are heavily ruined, focus will just be showing where the collapsed parts went along with updating the gradient.
Update test at /warp wallupdate
In the land of winter's grace, a castle stands in snowy embrace. Its halls are tall, its towers bold, And it shines like silver in the cold.
Greenguard is its name, a fortress strong, And inside its walls, a wondrous song. A hearth that burned with warming fire, And halls that echoed with the crow's lyre.
The snow may fall, the winds may howl, But Greenguard stands, a sturdy owl. Its strength unfaltering, its walls unbreakable, A castle that's truly unshakable.
So take your rest in this snowy keep, And watch the snow fall, oh so deep.
Greenguard Update
Canon Issues?
N/A
Cosmetic Improvements
Suggest:
- Like with Woodswatch, there are sections of collapsed tower but no sign of where the collapsed stone fell below so suggesting to add piles of cobble/brick at base.
- The stone brick palette is a bit of an inconsistent mix. Given the more modern lock of the tower/main keep will swap these to a mix of winterfell granite/stone brick and then add northern cobble/dark cobble to the weathered sections.
- adding some additional greenery to help earn it's namesake
- The lords/maesters tower has a stone floor, supported by wooden planks beneath. Suggesting the floor is just swapped to wood.
- The top level of this tower is also exposed to the snow/elements through a collapsed turret, more snow/ice/decay should be added for consistency.
- Stables has an un-optimal stone roof that could be improved with more arches
- adding snow on top of exposed blocks
- adding some white wood variation to the rooves
- the Wall gate is blocked with regular northern cobble/winterfell brick, would swap this to ice stairs/icy cobble and snow.
- adding the white wood where adjacent to snow
- tidying up the gradient with northern cobble varients
- incorporating MotM pebbles as a gradient between snow and northern pebble
Errors
N/A
Structural improvements
Greenguard currently doesn't have any underground tunnels connecting its buildings. Given the structures above ground are fairly limited (no sign of a kitchen or general storage), proposing to add a small system of partially collapsed tunnels/storage/dungeons underground.
The open area in the stables building is also used fairly inefficiently, with a lot of unused open space, suggesting this subdivided and a series of rafters added to create an attic space.
The Maester/Lord's tower also didn't have any direct stairs leading up to the second level, so will add an external set of stairs
Update test at /warp wallupdate
Greenguard is its name, a fortress strong, And inside its walls, a wondrous song. A hearth that burned with warming fire, And halls that echoed with the crow's lyre.
The snow may fall, the winds may howl, But Greenguard stands, a sturdy owl. Its strength unfaltering, its walls unbreakable, A castle that's truly unshakable.
So take your rest in this snowy keep, And watch the snow fall, oh so deep.
Greenguard Update
Canon Issues?
N/A
Cosmetic Improvements
Suggest:
- Like with Woodswatch, there are sections of collapsed tower but no sign of where the collapsed stone fell below so suggesting to add piles of cobble/brick at base.
- The stone brick palette is a bit of an inconsistent mix. Given the more modern lock of the tower/main keep will swap these to a mix of winterfell granite/stone brick and then add northern cobble/dark cobble to the weathered sections.
- adding some additional greenery to help earn it's namesake
- The lords/maesters tower has a stone floor, supported by wooden planks beneath. Suggesting the floor is just swapped to wood.
- The top level of this tower is also exposed to the snow/elements through a collapsed turret, more snow/ice/decay should be added for consistency.
- Stables has an un-optimal stone roof that could be improved with more arches
- adding snow on top of exposed blocks
- adding some white wood variation to the rooves
- the Wall gate is blocked with regular northern cobble/winterfell brick, would swap this to ice stairs/icy cobble and snow.
- adding the white wood where adjacent to snow
- tidying up the gradient with northern cobble varients
- incorporating MotM pebbles as a gradient between snow and northern pebble
Errors
N/A
Structural improvements
Greenguard currently doesn't have any underground tunnels connecting its buildings. Given the structures above ground are fairly limited (no sign of a kitchen or general storage), proposing to add a small system of partially collapsed tunnels/storage/dungeons underground.
The open area in the stables building is also used fairly inefficiently, with a lot of unused open space, suggesting this subdivided and a series of rafters added to create an attic space.
The Maester/Lord's tower also didn't have any direct stairs leading up to the second level, so will add an external set of stairs
Update test at /warp wallupdate
- Pronouns
- they/them
I'm not a big fan of that gradient. Small stones touching Northern Cobble, Dark Cobble as well as Winterfell Granite makes it seem a bit too busy/messy. Maybe separating the darkcobble and small stone together would work, so that there's the grey-green tones together and then the blue toned winterfell granite and northern cobble together
Winterfell granite, small stone bricks, dark cobble and northern cobble have been mixed fairly consistently for a while now (particularly at Winterfell). I've generally tried to use winterfell granite/small stone bricks together to show more modern/refined buildings, and then northern cobble to weather. Older buildings then have northern cobble/dark cobble as the base, with regular cobblestone added for damaged weathering. I can always better refine the transition though and try to have dark cobble as the buffer between northern cobble and regular cobble.
Greyguard, a castle of old, built with stones that will never fold.
The walls are crumbling yet strong; its beauty can't be put in song.
Greyguard is a sight to behold, it's an impressive structure that stands so bold.
It's ruin may conjure awe, but its strength and resilience remain from days of yore.
Greyguard Update
Canon Issues?
According to Jon, Greyguard has been abandoned for two hundred years. He also interestingly mentions that its steps up the Wall are made of stone, with a section having collapsed a century ago.
Greyguard came up when Jon and Mormont were discussing re-garrisoning some of the Wall castles in anticipation of Mance's attack.
"If we man Greyguard from the Shadow Tower and the Long Barrow from Eastwatch . . ."
"Greyguard has largely collapsed. Stonedoor would serve better, if the men could be found. Icemark and Deep Lake as well, mayhaps. With daily patrols along the battlements between."
This suggests that Greyguard should be fairly ruined, at least more so than Stonedoor.
Despite this, our interpretation of Greyguard still looks somewhat intact. The roofs are still in place on most of the buildings and some of the rooms look like they're still used, or only abandoned recently (rather than two hundred years ago)
Structural improvements
Main suggested change is collapsing the roofs on the main buildings. I've held off on breaking down the main structures themselves to preserve the original designs for the most part. I've added some extra ruined side buildings on the west wide to help.
Have also added a small section of tunnels connecting the main tower to the hall, a collapsed area suggests more tunnels were in place but now can't be accessed.
Cosmetic Improvements
Suggest:
- Adding more signs of wear/tear and ruin to the strucutures.
- one of the rooms has a flat square roof, will improve with arches.
- removing some of the items that would've been taken/detoriated in the proceeding centuries like candles/barrels.
- Have added the new varieties of walls and stairs of ice and cobble to the stone steps up the Wall.
- Will add some more greenery.
- Improve the rafter arrangement in the main hall.
- Removing the glass window from the tower.
- adding snow on top of exposed blocks.
- adding some white wood variation to the rooves.
- adding the white wood where adjacent to snow.
- tidying up the gradient with northern cobble varients.
- incorporating MotM pebbles as a gradient between snow and northern pebble.
Errors
N/A
Update test at /warp wallupdate
HIT ME UP IF YOU WANT TO UPDATE SENTINAL STAND OR QUEENSGATE. WE'RE NEARLY THERE FOLKS.
The walls are crumbling yet strong; its beauty can't be put in song.
Greyguard is a sight to behold, it's an impressive structure that stands so bold.
It's ruin may conjure awe, but its strength and resilience remain from days of yore.
Greyguard Update
Canon Issues?
According to Jon, Greyguard has been abandoned for two hundred years. He also interestingly mentions that its steps up the Wall are made of stone, with a section having collapsed a century ago.
Greyguard came up when Jon and Mormont were discussing re-garrisoning some of the Wall castles in anticipation of Mance's attack.
"If we man Greyguard from the Shadow Tower and the Long Barrow from Eastwatch . . ."
"Greyguard has largely collapsed. Stonedoor would serve better, if the men could be found. Icemark and Deep Lake as well, mayhaps. With daily patrols along the battlements between."
This suggests that Greyguard should be fairly ruined, at least more so than Stonedoor.
Despite this, our interpretation of Greyguard still looks somewhat intact. The roofs are still in place on most of the buildings and some of the rooms look like they're still used, or only abandoned recently (rather than two hundred years ago)
Structural improvements
Main suggested change is collapsing the roofs on the main buildings. I've held off on breaking down the main structures themselves to preserve the original designs for the most part. I've added some extra ruined side buildings on the west wide to help.
Have also added a small section of tunnels connecting the main tower to the hall, a collapsed area suggests more tunnels were in place but now can't be accessed.
Cosmetic Improvements
Suggest:
- Adding more signs of wear/tear and ruin to the strucutures.
- one of the rooms has a flat square roof, will improve with arches.
- removing some of the items that would've been taken/detoriated in the proceeding centuries like candles/barrels.
- Have added the new varieties of walls and stairs of ice and cobble to the stone steps up the Wall.
- Will add some more greenery.
- Improve the rafter arrangement in the main hall.
- Removing the glass window from the tower.
- adding snow on top of exposed blocks.
- adding some white wood variation to the rooves.
- adding the white wood where adjacent to snow.
- tidying up the gradient with northern cobble varients.
- incorporating MotM pebbles as a gradient between snow and northern pebble.
Errors
N/A
Update test at /warp wallupdate
HIT ME UP IF YOU WANT TO UPDATE SENTINAL STAND OR QUEENSGATE. WE'RE NEARLY THERE FOLKS.
Hey all, circling back on Westwatch, have been looking for some interesting natural land arch inspiration. Would be great to have the update finished before the end of the year, Deinol/Batel let me know you'd like to pass the torch back on the update.
Xianren Bridge
Shipton Arch
Sipapu Natural Bridge (this one is cool but doesn't seem like it formed in conditions analogous to the Gorge).
Virginia Natural Bridge
I kind of like the look of this artwork too, where the bridge isn't really an arch eroded by wind/water but part of the cliff that has tipped forward.
Xianren Bridge
Shipton Arch
Sipapu Natural Bridge (this one is cool but doesn't seem like it formed in conditions analogous to the Gorge).
Virginia Natural Bridge
I kind of like the look of this artwork too, where the bridge isn't really an arch eroded by wind/water but part of the cliff that has tipped forward.
The tipped cliff sounds interesting! I find it to be a more unique take when compared to a classic natural bridge made by erosion. Idk if it can help but here in Spain there's a village built over a natural bridge, maybe part of the castle is directly at the top of it? Not sure if canon goes against that.
A castle stands atop the hill,
Its walls are dark, its towers still.
The snowflakes dance, the winds howl,
Sentinel Stands guard with a scowl.
Sentinel Stand Update
Canon Issues?
N/A
Structural improvements
Have added more signs of collapse to the larger structure.
Cosmetic Improvements
Suggest:
- Main change is refreshing the stone brick texture. Current version is very salt 'n' peppery with icy northern cobble mixed with the basalt/bedrock. New gradient focusses the icy cobble to the broken sections/edges.
- Adding more signs of wear/tear and ruin to the structures.
- Adding more snow to the rooms exposed to the elments
- Swapped out the dirt/gravel floors for stone/pebbles
- Removing some of the items that would've been taken/detoriated in the proceeding centuries like candles/barrels.
- Have added the new varieties of walls and stairs of ice and cobble to the stone steps up the Wall.
- Will add some more greenery.
- adding snow on top of exposed blocks.
- replaced the large basalt cobble fence windows with basalt window blocks
- adding some white wood variation to the rooves.
- adding the white wood where adjacent to snow.
- tidying up the gradient with northern cobble varients.
- incorporating MotM pebbles as a gradient between snow and northern pebble.
Errors
N/A
Update test at /warp wallupdate
Its walls are dark, its towers still.
The snowflakes dance, the winds howl,
Sentinel Stands guard with a scowl.
Sentinel Stand Update
Canon Issues?
N/A
Structural improvements
Have added more signs of collapse to the larger structure.
Cosmetic Improvements
Suggest:
- Main change is refreshing the stone brick texture. Current version is very salt 'n' peppery with icy northern cobble mixed with the basalt/bedrock. New gradient focusses the icy cobble to the broken sections/edges.
- Adding more signs of wear/tear and ruin to the structures.
- Adding more snow to the rooms exposed to the elments
- Swapped out the dirt/gravel floors for stone/pebbles
- Removing some of the items that would've been taken/detoriated in the proceeding centuries like candles/barrels.
- Have added the new varieties of walls and stairs of ice and cobble to the stone steps up the Wall.
- Will add some more greenery.
- adding snow on top of exposed blocks.
- replaced the large basalt cobble fence windows with basalt window blocks
- adding some white wood variation to the rooves.
- adding the white wood where adjacent to snow.
- tidying up the gradient with northern cobble varients.
- incorporating MotM pebbles as a gradient between snow and northern pebble.
Errors
N/A
Update test at /warp wallupdate
Last edited:
Queensgate holds the line proud and tall
A fortress of ice and snow against the Wall
It sparkles like a diamond in the light
A sight of beauty and of might
Queensgate Update
Canon Issues?
N/A
Structural improvements
Have added more signs of collapse to the hall
Cosmetic Improvements
Suggest:
- Adding more signs of wear/tear and ruin to the structures.
- Adding more snow to the rooms exposed to the elements
- Swapped out the dirt/gravel floors for stone/pebbles
- Removing some of the items that would've been taken/detoriated in the proceeding centuries like candles/barrels.
- Have added the new varieties of walls and stairs of ice and cobble to the stone steps up the Wall.
- adding snow on top of exposed blocks.
- added some more trees/bushes
- replaced the large basalt cobble fence windows with basalt window blocks
- adding some white wood variation to the rooves.
- adding the white wood where adjacent to snow.
- tidying up the gradient with northern cobble varients.
- incorporating MotM pebbles as a gradient between snow and northern pebble.
Errors
Nothing major, have just removed some of the items like sword racks/outdoor sparing dummies that would be gone after a few hundred years of abandonment.
Update test at /warp wallupdate
A fortress of ice and snow against the Wall
It sparkles like a diamond in the light
A sight of beauty and of might
Queensgate Update
Canon Issues?
N/A
Structural improvements
Have added more signs of collapse to the hall
Cosmetic Improvements
Suggest:
- Adding more signs of wear/tear and ruin to the structures.
- Adding more snow to the rooms exposed to the elements
- Swapped out the dirt/gravel floors for stone/pebbles
- Removing some of the items that would've been taken/detoriated in the proceeding centuries like candles/barrels.
- Have added the new varieties of walls and stairs of ice and cobble to the stone steps up the Wall.
- adding snow on top of exposed blocks.
- added some more trees/bushes
- replaced the large basalt cobble fence windows with basalt window blocks
- adding some white wood variation to the rooves.
- adding the white wood where adjacent to snow.
- tidying up the gradient with northern cobble varients.
- incorporating MotM pebbles as a gradient between snow and northern pebble.
Errors
Nothing major, have just removed some of the items like sword racks/outdoor sparing dummies that would be gone after a few hundred years of abandonment.
Update test at /warp wallupdate
Have finished up two option ideas for the Bridge of SkullsHey all, circling back on Westwatch, have been looking for some interesting natural land arch inspiration. Would be great to have the update finished before the end of the year, Deinol/Batel let me know you'd like to pass the torch back on the update.
Xianren Bridge
Shipton Arch
Sipapu Natural Bridge (this one is cool but doesn't seem like it formed in conditions analogous to the Gorge).
Virginia Natural Bridge
I kind of like the look of this artwork too, where the bridge isn't really an arch eroded by wind/water but part of the cliff that has tipped forward.
Option 1:
Block mix update to current manmade stone bridge
Option 2:
Collapsed natural cliff bridge
I'm leaning towards the idea of some kind of natural bridge. To me it suggests they built Westwatch to block and guard the bridge, rather than going to the effort of constructing a bridge to make life easier for Free Folk raiders.
Curious to get people's two cents. I'll be working on updating the rest of the castle in the meantime.
Last edited:
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- they/them
I don't remember any quotes that could indicate material of the bridge but I'm on team natural bridge.
However I think increasing the scale of the bridge would make it feel like something that needed to be guarded. Rn it feels like the castle would be almost unassailable on the end of that collapsing bridge.
If it were a longer, more complete natural arch it'd feel both a bit more spooky and intimidating but also more of a threat to the watch. Also strong looking enough that they wouldn't just break the bridge to increase their security.
Thinking pravcice gate in the Bohemian Paradise (czesky Raj) and formations like jt. Very much rule of cool/fantasy leaning
However I think increasing the scale of the bridge would make it feel like something that needed to be guarded. Rn it feels like the castle would be almost unassailable on the end of that collapsing bridge.
If it were a longer, more complete natural arch it'd feel both a bit more spooky and intimidating but also more of a threat to the watch. Also strong looking enough that they wouldn't just break the bridge to increase their security.
Thinking pravcice gate in the Bohemian Paradise (czesky Raj) and formations like jt. Very much rule of cool/fantasy leaning