Planning [Map Repository] Riverlands

[DutchGuard]

Hey Dutch, I noticed your list does not include Whitewalls, despite it being in a different placement in Stoops map/doc from the current warp. Shouldn't it change locations too, to be closer to the God's Eye?

Ah yes, that can be included but it's a relatively minor change. The warp just needs to be moved a little south west. I also don't think we need a Lothston warp, as the house seems to have only ever held Harrenhal. The Whitewalls warp should replace it.

 

[CashBanks]

Whitewalls would just be an empty field right? Suppose it could be a point of interest to be included in a nearby project but not much to be done for it otherwise.

In any event can confirm that the Mods are good with the plans. The only point that came up was just a consensus that Pinkmaiden still holds up and should be left alone (maybe a minor facelift one day but that’s it), looks like that fits with your latest proposals though.

Thanks for sorting this all out

 

[Scubooty]

Whitewalls would just be an empty field right? Suppose it could be a point of interest to be included in a nearby project but not much to be done for it otherwise.

In any event can confirm that the Mods are good with the plans. The only point that came up was just a consensus that Pinkmaiden still holds up and should be left alone (maybe a minor facelift one day but that’s it), looks like that fits with your latest proposals though.

Thanks for sorting this all out

Whitewalls is probably just a part of the Harrenhal lands. Which would be reasonable given its size and importance. Being said then you could have a few small Harrenhal hamlets and things in the area around the pretty much nonexistent ruins.

 

[Antony]

I'd like to point out, that the Butterwells are still very much alive, and could still be holding some dominion over their former holdings around there.

 

[AerioOndos]

the area around whitewalls has an interesting amount of canon. The well, the weirwood circle, the inn etc

 

[EStoop]

Whitewalls would just be an empty field right? Suppose it could be a point of interest to be included in a nearby project but not much to be done for it otherwise.

In any event can confirm that the Mods are good with the plans. The only point that came up was just a consensus that Pinkmaiden still holds up and should be left alone (maybe a minor facelift one day but that’s it), looks like that fits with your latest proposals though.

Thanks for sorting this all out

I think Whitewalls would still have some remains left standing. Even if every last stone was removed from the site, which I find highly unlikely, the terrain would still be shaped after the estate (though barren as the earth was salted). A castle doesn't completely vanish within 80 years.

Besides, it is a unique canon location and it would be a shame not to include it on our map in one way or another.

 

[CashBanks]

Nay! Sterile field of grass and flowers!

Haha, but yes you’re right it’s absolutely got potential as a fun build and worthwhile exploring.

 

[Scubooty]

I'd like to point out, that the Butterwells are still very much alive, and could still be holding some dominion over their former holdings around there.

I think after the incident of the Blackfyre Rebellion the Targs in their Ruthlessness (Especially Bloodraven) would have given the lands to other houses to quite literally add salt to the wounds lol.

 

[Ric]

Hey just to add to the discussion: house Butterwell is famous for dairy production and for wine production (iirc). An indicious of what the lands around Whitewalls and their original (current?) castle should have and, in my opinion, a reason for it's placement to be properly adressed independently if Whitewalls itself is totally destroyed or not

 

[Antony]

I think after the incident of the Blackfyre Rebellion the Targs in their Ruthlessness (Especially Bloodraven) would have given the lands to other houses to quite literally add salt to the wounds lol.

The Butterwells retained 1/4 of their original lands, the rest, were abandoned, and the fields were salted. Its only logical, that noone would lay claim on them, on the factor that they were basicaly useless, as for the Butterwells, I'd say, that they could have regained some of their lost power, now that the targs are no longer rulling. We can see that, in also the case of House Merryweather. Now since the Riverlands joined Robert in his struggle against the Mad King, wouldnt it be logical, that they would have been gifted some of their lands back, esspecialy those that could have been held by their neighbor House Darry, which lost half their lands after Bobby B's Rebellion.

Its stated that the Darrys lost half their lands. So some of the lands they lost, could have been the Butterwell lands they took, after the raising of Whitewalls, and since there is no information that the Butterwells remained as Targ loyalists, which is also HIGHLY unlikely, due to what they passed under their rule.

 

[EStoop]

Spoiler: The Mystery Knight

"Treason is no less vile because the traitor proves a craven," Lord Rivers was saying. "I have heard your bleatings, Lord Ambrose, and I believe one word in ten. On that account I will allow you to retain a tenth part of your fortune. You may keep your wife as well. I wish you joy of her."

"And Whitewalls?" asked Butterwell with quavering voice.

"Forfeit to the Iron Throne. I mean to pull it down stone by stone and sow the ground that it stands upon with salt. In twenty years, no one will remember it existed. Old fools and young malcontents still make pilgrimages to the Redgrass Field to plant flowers on the spot where Daemon Blackfyre fell. I will not suffer Whitewalls to become another monument to the Black Dragon." He waved a pale hand. "Now scurry away, roach."

And:

Spoiler: The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys I

Were it not for the fact that Bloodraven had informants among the conspirators, Daemon the Younger could have launched a troubling rebellion from within the heart of the riverlands, but even before the tourney had concluded, the Hand turned up outside Whitewalls with a host of his own, and the Second Blackfyre Rebellion ended before it could truly be said to have begun. Gormon Peake was among the conspirators executed in the wake of the thwarted rebellion, while others such as Lord Butterwell suffered the loss of land and seats. As for Daemon, he lived on for several more years, a hostage in the Red Keep. Some wondered at his imprisonment, but the wisdom of it was plain: his next eldest brother, Haegon, could not claim the throne if Daemon were still alive.

It's only said the castle grounds were to be salted, not the entire Butterwell demesne. The lands and seats forfeited to the throne would be given to knights and lords loyal to the Targaryens but would remain just as prosperous as they were under Butterwell rule, as they had not been affected by war.

Wether parts of the Riverlands are ruled by house Butterwell, Darry or anyone else is not really importand, as long as the region accurately portrays the canon descriptions we have.

 

[DutchGuard]

I may have mentioned it elsewhere on the forums, but a good idea for Whitewalls would be to make a few "newer" buildings or additions to buildings out of the white stone which would have been salvaged from the castle. Maybe even a whole village using a white Vale palette?

The former site of the castle I think would appear similar to that of the long-gone Nonsuch Palace in England, as I suspect GRRM used it as inspiration for the opulence of Whitewalls. The listing description of the remains would be a great source of inspiration.

This is what the site looks like today.

 

[IronGentleGiant]

I wonder if in the red and orange lands where castles and keeps may be under some level of siege if my Trebuchet may be of use in showing the Westerlands path of destruction.

 

[AerioOndos]

I don’t think there were largescale sieges big or long enough for a trebuchet to be used

 

[Antony]

I'd think of Whitewalls, more like Fotheringhay castle tbf, but in larger scale, like a few more lumps of stone scattered around, a few remains of foundations and earthworks, and that it.

 

[Azulejo]

Old buildings that have been dismanteled or plundered still show some remains on the surface. Usually foundations pop out of the ground after walls and floors have been stripped, since land is exposed to rain and, at first, vegetation has not grown yet (more in case of Whitewalls).

This is Vindolanda, a Roman camp in Northumberland. As you can see unexcavated areas show the contours of the constructions below.


Turruñuelos, Córdoba. An old arab estate, crops grow differently where walls are below ground, since soil is less deep

I may have mentioned it elsewhere on the forums, but a good idea for Whitewalls would be to make a few "newer" buildings or additions to buildings out of the white stone which would have been salvaged from the castle. Maybe even a whole village using a white Vale palette?

Canon says that Lord Bloodraven ordered Sir Ambrose Butterwell dismanteling Whitewalls. Most likely this task was made by the demense that the Butterwells retained at the time, or the population that lived on the surroundings, fast but in a sloppily manner. So it's very probable that this peasants used materials they extracted from the site in their houses or villages nearby: walls with carved stones combined with more rough rubble work, maybe a small sept with 3 or 4 mismatched columns or marble floors...

Basílica de Santa Eulalia, Mérida. Part of a roman temple (pediment and columns) was used to make the porch to this Christian temple. Examples like this are very common all around the Roman world, this one is just the first that comes to mind.


EDIT: Added more pics of reused buiding materials
1: Roman columns used as foundations. Notre Dame Cathedral, Vaison-la-Romaine.
2: Pre-Roman stone buckets and zoomorphic statue used in the medieval wall of Ávila.
3: Roman inscription at the base of the Giralda, Sevilla.
4: Door using Roman brick at the Trinity Church. Colchester.
5 & 6: Water deposit (aljibe) of the muslim alcazaba (~fortified enclosure/castle) of Mérida, using Visigothic carved stones.
7: Roman bathtub in porphyry used as Baptismal font. Cathedral of Milan.