Planning [Map Repository] Riverlands

[OLD FORUM REPOST - 3/13/18]

Quick Reference 1
Quick Reference 2

ThamusKnoward said:
Since it is really hard to keep track of the latest rendition of the guide-map Demod is making aswell as the canon info supporting it, I would like you guys to use this google doc to keep track of the quotes and interpretations for each section of the riverlands! Demod could then upload an always updated map into this thread for editors and project applicants to reference.

I have given you an example for the correct format of how to quote aswell as the correct way of how to separate interpretation from fact. Try to keep the doc tidy and have discussions about interpretations within the commenting function. Be thorough on reading all of the canon you can find and considering all possible translations/ meanings of words before jumping to conclusions.

Demodocus said:
Huzzah! I will update what I have and re-draw a new map, but ... what would be super helpful is any and all quotes any and all of us can find about the Riverlands and its roads and build locations!

This is the most common map, but perhaps Thamus, whenever I put a new map in here (which I will once this canon info is more solidfied) you can edit the first post with the latest official map!

I've added some other sections of the Riverlands in need of canon info., so check out the doc!
Demodocus said:
From the Sow's Horn App said:
Here's my version of the Riverland's Lower East Side, which includes the information that Thamus found, some of the ideas from your map, but also the research and map that I had done earlier and new canon info I found (which is being collected on the Riverlands Map Post in the Builder's Zone). I would strongly urge you to consider this map carefully and work out your application to adjust to it. Some notes about the map (for the general public too!): * The border is actually created by two rivers, one going south and one into the God's Eye. This ambiguous border has probably changed over the centuries, which is why Hogg Hall was labelled as a Riverlands holding in the Princess and the Queen, but now could belong to Sow's Horn. * Confusion is maybe why Mountain/Lorch et al burned Hogg Hall "accidentally" because it has sometimes been considered in the Riverlands ... although they were probably burning everything ... * Jaime's locations: stable, inn, barn, island, and field are plotted out, but the distance is quite five days, but close enough without making the map very skewed. * Arya actually sees a wooded island when she sees the town that she gets captured in (called Harbury, but that's an invented name, not canon) but I doubt that is the same wooded island that Jaime mentions ... if it is ... then Martin is crazy and this map needs to be redone ... again ... but I don't think it would be.
Also, I think that Wheatfield should be redone with the new roads and canon info and our timeline needs to be agreed upon in this area. According to Arya and Yoren, if "Wheatfield" (not canon name) is burned, then so would the towns across the river. That's a lot of burned things, which is sad ... but how far has Arya gotten after the end of Book 1 ... and since she saw "Wheatfield" burning "the town to the north that lit up the sky" it wouldn't have been burned while she was with Yoren in Kingslanding, and neither would the other towns. The Lannister forces had been burning in the western riverlands (Mummer's Ford, e.g.) but while Arya moved north and west, they were moving south and east, meaning that those places are not burned in the timeline we have set for the server. Right?

Map for Lower East Side.
Demodocus said:
The latest map, with the overlay of the Lower East Side, and some corrections from Arya's journey, post-Harrnehal.

Map #4

Some points to consider, if you read the research in the Riverlands Doc you'll have the quotes, but to summarize using the numbered points.

1. Arya follows a farm path, but doesn't cross the river, going West.
2. Arya shuns a road, which is the one that goes towards Greenapple/Ser Warrens
3. Arya finds a burned village (which I've named Whiteapple because it has bones in apple trees ... spooky ... )
4. Arya crosses the river, after arguing about what river it actually is.
5. Arya crosses another river, which no one argues about

I like that this path is not very direct at all, which makes sense because they are VERY lost and only happen to be sort of correct.

Conjecture: After crossing this river, they continue in some way that is undescribed until her story picks up at Old Pate's Cottage. I'm assuming that she headed north (she could have followed the river if she found it again) and then saw either Harroway's or the River Road. She followed the River Road, being careful not to be seen past Greenapple, Lambswold, and Kneeling Man, until she is caught, taken back to the Kneeling Man by Tom of Sevenstreams et al.

What's interesting is that this would take Arya past Whitewalls, which was ruined in The Mystery Knight following the Blackfyre Rebellion. It was ruined to a degree that no one could recognize and it faded from memory as Bloodraven commanded its fields were sown with salt, etc. Perhaps it would be interesting to still have the ruins and maybe an abandoned road that once connected Harrenhal and Harroway more directly through Whitewalls and these villages, which would have been controlled by the Butterwells, now extinct.
Demodocus said:
An update on the Riverlands mapping project:

The rivers that feed the God's Eye and the roads connecting those builds are completed. Currently, mapping and painting have been more based on necessity. For example, mamorb's build of Ser Warren's Towerhsou or AtomicLama's Sow's Horn have prompted me to work on those areas first so they can start building.

What's next:

At this point, without the tree brush which is needed for the forests (The Spiderwood, i.e. BWB woods and The Lost Woods, i.e. the one Arya get's lost in and has the wolf pack), progress has been stalled. I've plotted many rivers and roads, but have not prompted any editors to help with the terraforming. Howy did a good job with Ser Warren's but we could use more hands on this project (but maybe only once the tree brush is a reality?)

Also, more research could be done on the Riverlands Map Doc, especially about houses closer to the North. I had always assumed that a main road went from the Twins to Fairmarket, which Robb's army used going south, but the bridge was out when Catelyn/Robb et al went back. Along this road may be some holdfasts, villages, etc. that are sworn to the Freys.
Demodocus said:
Alright, I've made an updated version of the Riverlands map -- Map #5

I've placed the seven houses from the Riverlands that are unspecified:

Erenford
Charlton
Deddings
Wayn
Keath
Grell
Vypren

As well as invented five houses (most of them are English names for common European fish)

Bream
Rudd
Dace
Tench
Lund (this is actually just "grove of trees" in Danish ... I think ... )

Most of these houses fill out the area between the Twins and its neighbors, especially along the Kinsroad and between Twins and Fairmarket. I've also placed some towards Wayfarer's Rest, but I think that the Tully lands need to be finished as well. Currently, they have NO fields ... which seems like a problem.

The region by Seagard accounts for Ecthelion and Dav's application, but makes some changes to the roads (see this)

(Note: As for learning WE, etc. I think I'll wait until after exams for this semester. Summer will be much more open!)
 
[cont]

Demodocus said:
There are three roads from Riverrun to the Twins:

Road #1: The most-traveled -- goes from the Twins to Fairmarket via House Grell and House Wayn

This road is not mentioned specifically in the canon, but since Robb and Catelyn discuss how the bridge is out in Fairmarket, I'm assuming that they intended to go back the same way they took on the way down.

Road #2: The second most-traveled -- goes from the Twins to Seagard, then Sevenstreams, Hags Mire, and Fairmarket

This road is less passable and a longer route, but when the rivers run high (as they do when Robb and Catelyn have to go back to the Twins) it is another option.

Road #3: The least traveled - goes from the Twins to Seagard, then to through Blackwood Vale via the coast.

This road is not mentioned in the canon, but it is a logical connection for the Blackwood Vale. As proposed in the latest Seagard app (where some of this was discussed), this could be a mountain pass which is not as convenient as the interior roads. Also, some travelers would likely steer clear of the Blackwood Vale, making it less popular among travelers.

Also, just for the record, I really have grown fond of the Keaths of the Sea and Keaths of the River. My proposed, un-canon, backstory for the two houses is this:

At some point before Aegon's conquest when the Riverlands had no Lord Paramount to settle disputes, there was bad blood between the Freys and the Mallisters (as I'm sure there still is). Perhaps the reason was Harren the Black's invasion, which the Mallisters tried to defend against while the Freys sat in their castle as usual. House Keath, a smaller house on the coast near Seagard supported their liege lords, but one of the younger sons and his followers decided to betray his older brother, deserting the defense against the Ironborn and joined the Freys. The Freys carved out a piece of land for the upstart House Keath of the River. Although the two houses still mistrust one another, both are recognized by the Tullys as legitimate, but it has always been a hot button issue between the Mallisters and Freys, with all parties trying not to speak too frequently about it.
Demodocus said:
Given some of the recent discussion on roads and also how we are assigning values which will affect our game design for the MMORPG, I've updated the Riverlands map with the value assigned to each road.

Eventually, I might make a separate thread explaining what these values mean, why we should have them, and how we can paint/repaint roads to match them.

But, for now ... here's the latest map.
Discs said:
Hey there,
I've devised a 'Mountain's Journey' map so we can decide which villages should be burned in our timeframe. I've used canon and worked to fit existing builds as much as possible, as well as sticking to Demod's roads unless absolutely necessary.

imgur link: http://i.imgur.com/4nNJ9jz.png

Footnotes:
(i) Ser Gregor has just left King's Landing after his defeat at the Hand's Tourney. He's in a bad mood, but keeps to the king's peace for now.

(ii)The river ford is overflowing, so Gregor and his chums bunk down for the night in an alehouse. This is where they rape Layna.

(iii)They've reached Clegane's Keep, but their respite is short-lived. They are called to Lannisport where they are ordered to harry the riverlands to drag Lord Eddard Stark into the field.

(iv)They've crossed the Golden Tooth into the riverlands, but don't continue along the riverroad to Wayfarer's Rest to avoid Riverrun being informed.

(v)They've successfully sacked Stone Hedge, but leave Ser Warren's Towerhouse along for now. They cut across the countryside to Willow Wood.

(vi)It seems that while Gregor is still in Wheatfield for now, some Lannister men have broken off and formed an encampment here. (Lorch, perhaps?)


In case the image is unclear, the burnt builds should be:
-Wendish Town
-The Sherrer
-The Mummer's Ford
-(High Heart): nothing to burn
-(Goodbrook): already a ruin
-Merrydown Dell
-Stone Hedge
-Lambswold
-"Burned Village"
-Crossed Elms
-Willow Wood
-Wheatfield

As far as I can tell, this does not affect any existing builds that aren't already slated for a redo.
Discs said:
I've made some updates to the Mountain and the Manticore map after finding some new canon. This isn't a massive change; I've just shortened Ser Amory's journey a little and changed his course to Rushing Falls. The Halls of the Brothers Wode, Hogg Hall and Sow's Horn are no longer burnt during our timeframe - it turns out they were attacked later on in the plot.

The Mountain and the Manticore: Version III

imgur link:
Updated Footnotes:
(i) Ser Gregor has just left King's Landing after his defeat at the Hand's Tourney. He's in a bad mood, but keeps to the king's peace for now.

(ii) The river ford is overflowing, so Gregor and his chums bunk down for the night in an alehouse. This is where they rape Layna.

(iii) They've reached Clegane's Keep, but their respite is short-lived. They are called to Lannisport where they are ordered to harry the riverlands to drag Lord Eddard Stark into the field.

(iv) They've crossed the Golden Tooth into the riverlands, but don't continue along the riverroad to Wayfarer's Rest to avoid Riverrun being informed.

(v) The Mountain chills with his bros at the Mummer's Ford, waiting to ambush Beric's League of Justice. Battle commences; Beric's band scatters; Gregor goes off to join Tywin, burning as he goes.

(vi) Ser Gregor meets up with Tywin's host at the Crossroads Inn. He, along with Ser Amory and Vargo Hoat, are ordered to continue ravaging the riverlands. (Vargo does little until past our timeframe so he doesn't get a journey on the map)

(vii) While Gregor goes off and does his thing, Ser Amory heads in the other direction and takes Darry. This is a relatively peaceful capture, so Darry doesn't need to be burned. (it is, however, resacked by Gregor in the next book but that's irrelevant to us)

(viii) Ser Amory has stopped and made camp at Rushing Falls. He 'kills' Beric Dondarrion here.

(ix) Stoney Sept is experiences several sackings during the War of the Five Kings, the first of which takes place during the first book. This first attack is perpetrated by other nondescript Lannister raiders, not Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch or Vargo Hoat. The sacking is therefore fairly minimal, and for the most part the town is still standing - only a few houses are burned and empty.

(x) Wheatfield has also been destroyed by another nondescript Lannister raiding party.

Updated destroyed builds:

Wendish Town
The Sherrer
The Mummer's Ford (also site of battle)
High Heart (nothing to destroy)
Goodbrook (already destroyed)
Merrydown Dell
Whitewalls (already destroyed)
Inn at the Crossroads (Tywin's campsite)
Unnamed village
Lambswold
Stone Hedge
Crossed Elms
Unnamed holdfast
Rushing Falls
Wheatfield
Stoney Sept (partially)
 
Hi guys,

I’m getting a lot of requests from people to access our Riverlands Maps document. I don’t know who they are as they don’t identify themselves by IGN. In addition I don’t see myself being able to judge this anymore so I’d like to either transfer ownership to someone who does or shut down the documents/ links. I’ll do the latter on Sunday if I don’t receive any requests for the former.
 
Ah. What exactly is on it? Why does it need to be a private doc? Why can't we just post all the content to this thread? Doesn't seem like very high-profile information.
 
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It's actually too large to be posted here and annotated by Demod, so you'd lose comments if I pasted it here.

I've sent you an invitation and made you the owner Emote.

 
Hello all, I did some research for the locations of various noble houses in the Riverlands, and I came up with this overview:

Please excuse me if it's a bit unorganised. With the recent interest in the Riverlands I felt the need to publish this quicker than I had hoped.

I also made a new map for the palettes of the Riverlands, based on Wazgamer's and Discs' versions, including the upcoming Red Fork pink block. I removed brick as a palette, since usage should be common throughout all the Riverlands.

So now what?
The goal of this document is to give an indication of the positions of all the houses in the Riverlands for new projects. Existing projects should, in my opinion, stay exactly the same as they are but should be renamed to fit the overview I made. There are few noble seats in the Riverlands that have a canon description of it, and I don't think any of the misplaced ones do.
 
One question: are the palette areas that strict? Cuz the pink red fork block area encompasses the inn of the kneeling man which is canonically grey stone in the first level and white plastered wood in the second.
 
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Hey Stoop, maps look great. Could you possibly make a version of the map with house names instead of sigils? Or just add the names to the map you already have?
 
That's great thanks. I'm not great with memorising sigils so this really helps! I hope you don't mind me giving some feedback and asking some questions.
How accurate is this meant to be? A lot of the completed projects on the server don't match the placements on your map:

Erenford is too far north (is the current location not fine?)
Our completed Keath is near the Twins, not near the God's Eye (is the current location not fine?)
Lolliston is too far north, despite you saying you've placed it where the existing build is. (there isn't really room for Grell, Pemford, and Nutt to be moved to where you have them placed).
Our completed Grey is near the Mountains of the Moon, not near Fairmarket. (wouldn't it be fine to leave it where it is?)
Our completed Blanetree is on the Cape of Eagles, not near Riverrun (though I agree it should be relocated).
Our completed Terrick is between the Blue and Green forks, not south of Riverrun. (though I agree it should be relocated as well).

I'm also wondering why you chose to move Wayfarer's Rest east of Pinkmaiden. Does the current position (that is, of old Atranta, south of Riverrun) not fit canon? I'm glad you swapped around the Vance's in any case.

All the other moves are for projects we haven't started, so don't have any issues there.

I don't see why we should add House Harlton since we usually ignore houses that aren't part of the core canon. Anyway, you've placed it where House Corne should be.
I think we've also decided that Goode, Mandrake, and Bourney are in the Riverlands, so you could use them to fill in a few blanks perhaps.
 
That's great thanks. I'm not great with memorising sigils so this really helps! I hope you don't mind me giving some feedback and asking some questions.
How accurate is this meant to be? A lot of the completed projects on the server don't match the placements on your map:

Erenford is too far north (is the current location not fine?)
Our completed Keath is near the Twins, not near the God's Eye (is the current location not fine?)
Lolliston is too far north, despite you saying you've placed it where the existing build is. (there isn't really room for Grell, Pemford, and Nutt to be moved to where you have them placed).
Our completed Grey is near the Mountains of the Moon, not near Fairmarket. (wouldn't it be fine to leave it where it is?)
Our completed Blanetree is on the Cape of Eagles, not near Riverrun (though I agree it should be relocated).
Our completed Terrick is between the Blue and Green forks, not south of Riverrun. (though I agree it should be relocated as well).
Erenford - I moved Erenford since it's a vassal of house Frey, and the current setup of houses places house Keath, who is not a vassal of house Frey, between them. There isn't a solid reason for the move north, but I figured the area north of the Twins would benefit more from a noble house rather than a knightly house (the alternative being Woodmere).
Keath - As mentioned, Keath is currently in the middle of the Frey lands, essentially cutting them off from their own vassals.
Lolliston - You're right, that's an oversight. Regarding Grell, Pemford and Nutt, I think there is room. Lolliston could easily be renamed Nutt, Pemford is located at current Steepstream and Grell is positioned at current Bigglestone.
Grey - Their current position does not explain how they ended up at the Battle by the Lakeshore with house Blackwood rather than with house Frey.

I have no intention to undo the progress we made at these projects. I merely suggest to rename them.

I'm also wondering why you chose to move Wayfarer's Rest east of Pinkmaiden. Does the current position (that is, of old Atranta, south of Riverrun) not fit canon? I'm glad you swapped around the Vance's in any case.
In AWOIAF it's indicated house Tully was granted the lands of Riverrun by Armistead Vance, and were tasked with defending his kingdom from incursions from the Westerlands. I assume Wayfarer's Rest is the original seat of Armistead, since they have at least one known vassal while Atranta has not. In any case, if Armistead's seat was located between Riverrun and the Westerlands, the Tully's would not be able to succesfully defend against the Westerlands. So I assume that in order to get to the seat of the Vances, one must first pass Riverrun or lands controlled by the Tully's.

I placed Wayfarer's Rest roughly were I ended up placing house Wayne, in order to create a path for Visenya's Scouring while not having Wayfarer's Rest be on it.

I don't see why we should add House Harlton since we usually ignore houses that aren't part of the core canon. Anyway, you've placed it where House Corne should be.
I think we've also decided that Goode, Mandrake, and Bourney are in the Riverlands, so you could use them to fill in a few blanks perhaps.
We added house Whitehill in the North as well. I see no issue with adding a new house, especially since there is more than enough space.

I included Mandrake, but not houses Goode and Bourney. It shouldnt be too hard to find a place for them.
 
Awesome, I have no problem renaming projects to better fit canon. Could you give a specific list of suggestions for the projects you want to rename?
e.g. Keath -> Erenford etc.

Are you saying you will swap Wayfarer's and Wayne? That would make more sense to me.
Does this also mean that Blanetree, Deddings, Perryn, and Mandrake are later houses, also tasked with defence?

Yeah I'm not against adding Harlton, but you have it marked where Corne is being built atm.