Terra Project - Field of Fire

Just a note. Its still reasonably summery in the time setting, right?
Hot enough for people to lose their modesty in KL, according to Bobby B.
Should there be a greater amount of drier grass in the mix of the Field of Fire?
 

CashBanks

Shadowbinder
Welll, it does have a higher mix of scrub/fescue than the other fields/meadows. I figure it should still be more or less consistent with the grass mix and colors of the surrounding area. Perhaps there’s an argument that the rest of the Reach and Westerlands should be a lot drier, but probably too late for that in the same way it’s too late to get rid of the snow south of the Wall.

Plus at the time of Aegon’s Conquest, the fields actually were golden wheat fields, which would’ve contributed a lot to those dry/golden/yellow descriptors.
 
Love the idea of an abbey in the area! Here in Portugal we have a monastery called Batalha Monestary which translates to War Monestary, which was constructed in the site of the Aljubarrota battle against Spain where we won with 8000 troops and the Spanish had 30000.
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I really like the last image, and it fits beautifully with the location you've chosen near the river :D

Edit: I was looking at the site right now, and one piece of feedback I'd give is that some patches of the green plant blocks are too blob like, have some more noice specially with the 31:1,31:2 blocks with are useful to tie in all the other different vegetation blocks to make it seamless and cohesive.
 
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StanateeManatee

Playwright
Mini-App Proposal – Small Septry to the Warrior (maybe Father?).

I’m thinking the septry could go in this red circle on the north east end, where the Gold Road gets close to the river and where Aegon's forces would've encamped and where swords would've been shipped down the Blackwater. I’m open to suggestions though. The green circle is the top of the hill where Aegon’s forces made their stand. Battle Abbey was said to be built on the exact spot King Harold II was killed.
The Church was given extensive lands around the Hastings battlefield itself to farm and reap, which gave it the wealth and resources to build a sizable abbey on the grounds. I'm thinking this septry should be kept fairly modest though. I don’t feel too compelled to try and replicate the lavishness of Battle Abbey, particularly since this is all speculation, and the lands around the Field of Fire are densely occupied already. But again, open to suggestions.

Feel free to post ideas here/talk with me in game about it if you're interested in applying.

So, I get your historical reasoning, but it's a little strange since Peasedale, one of only two named and three confirmed septries, is 900 blocks away from your sign. In our only 70ish% completed map, there are warps for 36 septries and surely additional ones without warps. Do we really need two in such proximity?
Again, I get your reasoning, and it might increase interest in the area beyond "oh cool terra", so it's probably fine here. This might just be a knock on the shear number of septries in projects and a simple caution against making too many.
 
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Azulejo

Royal Messenger
Guest
So, I get your historical reasoning, but it's a little strange since Peasedale, one of only two named and three confirmed septries, is 900 blocks away from your sign. In our only 70ish% completed map, there are warps for 36 septries and surely additional ones without warps. Do we really need two in such proximity?
Again, I get your reasoning, and it might increase interest in the area beyond "oh cool terra", so it's probably fine here. This might just be a knock on the shear number of septries in projects and a simple caution against making too many.
While you're right about the number of septries mentioned explicity on the books, there are quite a few references to the existence of more all around Westeros:
  • Humfrey I Teague, King of the Rivers and the Hills, founded septs and motherhouses in the Riverlands in his efforts to stamp out worship of the old gods.​
  • Merle I Gardener, King of the Reach, encouraged construction of septries, septs and motherhouses in the Reach.​
  • Princess Rhaella Targaryen was a novice at the motherhouse attached to the Starry Sept in Oldtown. Septa Karolyn prevented Ser Orryn Baratheon from absconding with the girl.​
  • Queen Elinor Costayne gave up all claims to nobility later in life, becoming Mother Elinor at the great motherhouse in Lannisport.​
  • In 54 AC Queen Alysanne Targaryen was hosted by silent sisters at their motherhouse in Oldtown.​
  • Maegelle Targaryen was a pious princess who became a septa. Her sister Saera, however, ran away from the Oldtown motherhouse in 85 AC while still a novice.​
  • During the Dance of the Dragons, Prince Aemond Targaryen used Vhagar to destroy the motherhouse at Bechester.​
  • Lady Jeyne Arryn died at the Motherhouse of Maris in Gulltown in 134 AC.​
  • The journey of King Baelor I Targaryen to Dorne is remembered in songs popularized by septries and motherhouses.​
  • Prior to the reconciliation of the Faith through the efforts of Septon Barth, greedy septries and septons took advantage of lords and neighbors during the reign of King Jaehaerys I Targaryen.​
  • Septon Meribald often stays at septries during his travels.​
This is information shamelessly copied form the Wiki of Ice and Fire.

Along this there's the very evident paralelism between christianity and the Faith of the Seven, both in beliefs and the structure of the religious hierarchy, so understandably many structures, institucions and such have been inspired by the former.​
 
I agree with Azulejo. Since septries are generally equated on the server with real life abbeys it's not necessarily unusual to have lots of them around, sometimes even close-ish to each other. I live in Switzerland and there are like 5 different abbeys within a 20 minute drive of where I live (most of them not used anymore though). I think in the case of septries very close to each other it should be important that they are distinct from one another as in different gender and as CashBanks suggested, to have it dedicated to the Warrior or some factor like that. Also the map in game is obviously shrunk down so the two septries would theoretically be further apart anyway.
 

Telcontar

Street Preacher
Hey Cash, I'm interesting in trying my hand at the septry mini! I've started doing some very basic tests on my plot but nothing much to show yet, just letting you know that I'm working on it. I'd also love to discuss it in game if we get the chance :)

Regarding the sept's patron aspect, I personally like the idea of the Father rather than the Warrior, since I think it better fits the policies that Aegon I implemented after his victories - justice, law-making, forging alliances and forgiving past quarrels etc.

As this is my first mini, I'm not super clear on exactly what needs to be done. atm I working to plot a layout and then I'll start making some style tests.
 

Telcontar

Street Preacher
Alright, I've got a test layout for the main septry complex done on my plot. My main concern is that it might be bigger than what you want. I'm happy to make it smaller if necessary, although my justification is that real-life monastries/abbeys (particularly those granted lands by the crown) tend to be surprisingly large and sprawling, especially as they grow over time. Since this Septry was likely build during the reign of Aegon I, there would be some 200-300 years where the septry may have had new buildings added (elder brother's quarters, guesthouses etc.) While the overall layout is large, I have tried to keep the buildings themselves of a fairly modest height to prevent it looming too much.

Buildings:
  • Sept (publicly accessible through external entrance for pilgrims etc.)
  • Communal Hall/Rectory
  • Kitchens
  • Pantry
  • Cellar
  • Library
  • Dormitory
  • Elder Brother's Quarters (comprised of two buildings joined by a short covered walk. These might have been added on and expanded over 200+ years)
  • Meeting Chamber - used by the septons but also where a lord/king etc. would hold audiences if they stayed at the monastry. Perhaps quite a richly decorated room to reflect the links to Aegon I as he may have journeyed there after it's completion? (inspired by the Chapterhouses of irl monastries)
  • Male Guestrooms
  • Female Guestrooms - situated in an external building connected to the Septry via a covered walkway (seperate due to the division of septons/septa in the faith, and the description of Quiet Isle Septry having cottages set aside for female visitors.)
Grounds:
  • A small kitchen garden
  • A small private garden for the Elder Brother
  • Central Cloister/Garden
  • Large walled Grounds

  • Latrines
  • Mill (possibly a watermill, unsure how strong/fast the Blackwater is at this point)
  • Various food produce being grown in the grounds
  • Houses of any non-clergy workers who help the septry
  • Workshops? (Peasedale has a brewery, so I'm not sure if another would be too too close. Could perhaps have a parchment making workshop, if the Septry grazes livestock on the FoF
  • Crypt/Lichyard? I don't know if there's any canon for Septries having dedicated graveyards in them, but they do need somewhere to bury their dead, so perhaps a small outdoor graveyard or a modest crypt beneath the Sept.
  • Possibly a small jetty/barge landing on the river? Could represent the idea that you mentioned, that Aegon I would have shipped swords from the FoF and Westerland/Reach bannermen down the river to KL. If the septry produces anything (like parchment) it could also be the point where traders pick it up.

I've also tried some palette tests based on surrounding settlements. Personally, I'd like to try a plaster/whitewashed palette to help visually distinguish the septry from the nearby Peasedale, Chelsted and Tumblton septries. Whitewashing was also (I believe) a fairly common practice for castles and churches to protect the stonework.

Let me know what you think, especially if the whole thing is too large!

Here's some screenshots: Imgur Album
You can check out this test at /warp telcontaro
 
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Ric

Royal Messenger
I've also tried some palatte tests based on surrounding settlements. Personally, I'd like to try a plaster/whitewashed palette to help visually distinguish the septry from the nearby Peasedale, Chelsted and Tumblton septries. Whitewashing was also (I believe) a fairly common practice for castles and churches to protect the stonework.
Might I suggest you make a palette closer to King's Landing and the Red Keep (like using the kl dun block)? I think it would look very nice and reinforce the feeling of it being a Targaryen sponsered place. The red color also gives a fire symbolism, also fitting imo.
 

Azulejo

Royal Messenger
Guest
Even if you fancy it you could go for bricks on the lesser areas of the septry. There are clay quarrys (I think that's the correct term) alongside the river near King's Landing and Stoney Sept.
 
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CashBanks

Shadowbinder
Hey Telcontar,
Great to see you applying for this one.

I like the look of your tests so far and I'm on board with your suggestion that we swap from the Warrior to the Father.

Love Ric's idea that we go with a Dun palette mix. Can take a look around Duskendale or the KL remaster for examples of that palette.

I'm fine with the buildings/locations you've got currently planned. With the others:
  • Latrines
    • they probably just used pots/buckets and chucked it in the river.
  • Mill (possibly a watermill, unsure how strong/fast the Blackwater is at this point)
    • Water mills should be fairly common in the area so I'd be ok with one being added, the Blackwater is said to be moving quickly when it reaches Blackwater Bay so it should be fine. If they have a mill it would make sense for some grain fields to be added as well.
  • Various food produce being grown in the grounds
    • Yeah the shape/extent of the produce gardens is something that will need close attention so we can make sure they look naturally integrated into the area without dominating the hillside.
  • Houses of any non-clergy workers who help the septry
    • Probably not necessary since there's a few towns and hamlets around nearby.
  • Workshops? (Peasedale has a brewery, so I'm not sure if another would be too too close. Could perhaps have a parchment making workshop, if the Septry grazes livestock on the FoF)
    • Yeah I gather that septries should be fairly self sufficient, so they'd have a standard workshop, and sure certainly possible they'd have some parchment making facilities.
  • Crypt/Lichyard? I don't know if there's any canon for Septries having dedicated graveyards in them, but they do need somewhere to bury their dead, so perhaps a small outdoor graveyard or a modest crypt beneath the Sept.
    • I'd be down for a crypt beneath the sept. The dead were often buried in mass graves, then once they had decomposed they'd dig up the bones and stack them in catacombs.
  • Possibly a small jetty/barge landing on the river?
    • Sure thing.
Locking in the layout of the gardens/livestock pastures/fields will probably take a bit of work and discussion in game, but I like the look of your building tests. I think there's scope to add some tiered areas to the northern slope of the hill down the Blackwater so we can explore some of those ideas.

Happy to approve, will just need Elduwin or WRMD to sign off as well. Thanks :)
 

Telcontar

Street Preacher
Hey Cash, glad to hear you're liking it so far!

I've started testing a dun palette inspired by KL, as well as normal orange brick for the newer extensions and add ons as Ric and Azulejo suggested. I already much prefer it to my previous palettes :p

I think I agree with all your other feedback, the only point I'd bring up is the latrines. I mentioned this because IRL monastries often had very sophisticated, communal latrines by contemporary standards (called reredorters) due to cleanliness being equated with holiness. They even went so far as to divert rivers into canals, or catch rainwater to clean latrines. However, this may be totally unimportant for Westerosi septries, and I'm happy to go with just a normal outhouse if you think that's more suitable. I'm aware I've gotta try not to get too caught up in real-world historical inspiration, when Westeros is a fantasy world :p

I also agree the gardens and fields need work. I'll try to get some layout of the grounds within the walls planned out, but definitely would love some in-game discussion to see how best to lay them out, as I don't have a ton of experience with that sort of thing. I love the idea of terraced or tiered fields/pastures etc on the north side of the hill, but would want to have a talk about that to see how big etc. you think they should be.

I added three new images to the end of the imgur album showing the new palette tests. :)

Expanded Album

Thanks for the feedback!
 

Telcontar

Street Preacher
Hey, no worries at all Eld!

I've caught up with Cash in game, but I've added some new pictures to the Imgur album for anyone who wants to take a look and give feedback since I've made a fair bit of progress.

I've added a meadery, wax workshop, and cheese-making workshop in addition to the things I mentioned in my planning post.
Any and all feedback is welcome!

Added new pictures to Album

P.S. Eld, I updated my Redwyne galley based on your feedback a while ago, but haven't managed to catch you in game yet, if you ever have a free moment, could you check it out on my plot? Among your other feedback, I also made the bow-spur thicker as you originally suggested, as after some research I've found that while not a ram, it was apparently used for breaking oars and boarding action! :)
 

Scubooty

Emissary
Earlier in this thread Stan mentioned the proximity to Peasedale. While we brushed that off at the time I think I'd like to remind us of how close it is due to the quite large size of the septry. I don't think it needs the amount of "Industries" going on that it currently has. For instance a meadery, wax workshop (bees im assuming?), and cheese making would typically be set aside for like 1 complex within most projects. It seems like this much would be hard to support as well and why are all these things necessary? So like going back to the peasedale septry surely it would be better to have 2 small Septries in close proximity rather than 1 large one which is larger than most of the castles in the area and then another decent sized septry nearby. While IRL monasteries tended to be fortresses of their own the scale of our server and also the fact that its post Aegon's Conquest so not much need for defense and solidarity now that you are united means it is unecessary. It seems to just be a bit too much in my opinion. I had thought of the septry as being smaller and more quaint as it is more of a memorial.
 

Telcontar

Street Preacher
Hey Scubooty, I've read through your post and thought about it at length. I'm not sure I agree but I admit that I am 100% biased as the builder so I'd love to hear others' opinions on this as well!

These are my arguments for the current size of the Septry:

Firstly, I used Peasedale Septry a lot as inspiration for my build, including the size. My rough measurements are as follows:

Peasedale:
North/South = ~102 blocks
East/West = ~107 Blocks (~118 with orchard)


Field Of Fire:
North/South = ~89 blocks
East/West = ~139 blocks



Both images were taken at 160 y, and the ground level is very similar (~49 vs ~47) so I think they give quite a good comparison. I would argue that while my FoF build is larger than Peasedale septry, it's not by that much. I tried to make the buildings of the septry itself significantly lower and thinner to balance the larger footprint.

Secondly, regarding industries, you're right, there is a lot going on, although again I would argue that it's fairly justified. IRL monastries tended to be self-sufficient and producers of many goods, particularly cheese and alcohol. Again, taking Peasedale as inspiration, the smaller septry contains apiaries, candle making, cheesemaking and a cidery. Canon (based on the wiki of ice and fire, which I think is pretty accurate) says that a prosperous septry in the riverlands worked "dozen milk cows and a bull, a hundred beehives, a vineyard, an apple arbor, a mill, and a brewhouse." A vinyard, orchard, and hundred beehives (and the necessary facilities to process those products) is quite substantial, even if this is a particularly wealthy spetry.

I would say the need for this level of industry is twofold. Practicality and money. Things like cheesemaking and the smokehouse are basic medieval necessities to allow the preservation of food, and are not much work to manage (based on my limited knowledge). Parchment making and candlemaking serve the purpose of providing the septry with vital resources (pretty sure septs use a lot of candles, and septries are noted to store books/scrolls) which would otherwise be very expensive to purchase. Excess stock can be sold for money to help with maintaining the septry. The meadery is just an extension of the candle-making. If you have honey, processing it into mead is a fairly simple and value-enhancing procedure and also one deeply associated with monastries irl (and in canon, I believe, as the Quiet Isle Septry is said to make good mead)

The ability to support this industry is a good question. I initially suggested a few farmers houses for non-septon inhabitants but as Cashbanks pointed out there are already nearby hamlets and villages that could provide volunteer workers. I haven't thought much about it since then. Looking at a map I would agree that the surrounding villages might be a little far, but I think it's not inconcievable for Girdle and Bechester to send villagers. I think the septons themselves can also do a lot of the industry work. I've built the septry with around 20-40 septons in mind, which gives a lot of labour to suppor this. There isn't that much room in the septry to graze cattle or goats, but I have assumed they could graze them on the northern FoF.

To address your point about the need (or lack of need) for defence, I didn't intend the size or layout of the septry to be particularly defense oriented. The boundy wall is low and thin, and is mostly just to demarcate the septry grounds, keep thieves out and provide a sense of seclusion from the outside world. The gatehouse is large but mostly ornamental and lacks any true defensive features, instead providing lodgings for the porter/doorkeeper.

When considering its purpose as a memorial, I actually deliberatly went for the opposite of "quaint", as I imagined it as less a "memorial" as we think of today and more as a statement of power and intention by Aegon. It is - to my mind - intented to invoke a sense of power and authority. To remind people of Aegon's mercy and faith in the Seven, but also as a quiet reminder of his wrath. Both Battle Abbey and Batalha Monastary were/are grand and imposing structures which, to my eye, celebrate the power and wealth of the kings who built them as much as they pay homage to the gods. I have tried to keep the sense of power and prestige with my build, while attempting to avoid it becoming imposing.

I agree that the server scale might make the more realistic depiction of monastries/septries inapropriate in places, however I still feel that the FoF is a large enough area that the current layout doesn't feel overly intrusive and while the footprint is indeed larger than many castles, I personally don't think that's a bad thing. I intended for it to feel sprawling, in a way that smaller castles often aren't, with their focus on defense.

Finally, I would echo the point made earlier in this thread, that a lot of septries could be fine. Medieval england had a lot of priories/abbeys/monastries and convents, I don't see any great reason why they should be that rare in Westeros.

I really hope this post doesn't come across as hostile to your feedback! I really appreciate you taking the time to let me know your thoughts, it just happens to be something I've thought long and hard about and have a different opinion on, and I wanted to lay out my full thought process for you.
 
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I'm in support of Telcontar here. I do like the size of the septry and it helps develop the Blackwater Rush area. Too much of it is wilderness when it would be one of the more settled rivers in Westeros. It shows more possibilities for trade along the river and development of the area, as well as make holdfasts of landed knights (like what was given to Daemon Blackfyre) seem less unusual.

Another point on the Peasedale Septry. Its notable in canon for its age, and possessing a particular book. Considering the book is quite old, I'd suggest including somewhere a mill producing archival paper. This is made from pounded linen or rags and is more durable than wood-pulp paper, parchment or papyrus. It is also somewhat resistant to humidity.
Also, when the war reaches Stoney Sept and its surrounds, I like the idea of septries like these ones on the untouched southern bank organising food parcels and taking in refugees.

If compromises on size are to be made, have the hives placed in a forest clearing and the orchard placed next to the forest as well. Bees love fruit bearing trees and by having them on the edge of the forest, you can cut off the NW corner and reduce overall footprint that way.