Under Review Project Application: House Tarly of Horn Hill by Awbman

[AwbMan]

Hello all,

This is take 2 of my application for House Tarly! The link can be found below. Hope you enjoy!

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

Im going to be real right here as I stated previously in-server. But you are not ready for a project of this size or caliber

You are a builder whose resume at best has 2 minis and zero solo projects.

This is a terra-heavy project that consists of large portions of the Red Mountains, foothills, forests and river terra, and you have provided zero tests of terra nor do you have experience with terra. And in the face of script’s becoming unusable in 8 days this is a serious concern. And while you have previously handwaved these concerns away in server the fact that you don’t even have terra examples is telling.

This is a project of a major bannerman who requires a higher skill level than you have demonstrated, more than just doing interiors. There is a degree of resume building you need to achieve in order to acquire these “higher-level” projects that you currently lack. And scrambling to latch unto a coop builder to borrow their resume isn’t enough to assuage these concerns.

Its why newly joined builders aren’t allowed to immediately gun after projects like Highgarden or Brightwater Keep without proving they can complete more humble and smaller projects with less canon considerations. They have to build up to it and prove that they are able to complete a project and be able to scale up to it.

For example in order to obtain the permission for the Upper Honeywine I have at a minimum 4 solo projects, and 3 minis. I had to work to earn those projects one by one. Every server project, mega project, and major bannerman is headed by a builder with at least one solo project of note.

Its proof that you have the capability to lead a project and not just leave it abandoned when you get overwhelmed or bored.

And this is not an attack on you as a person as you have stated and insinuated every time these concerns were brought up in-game (including having multiple people suggesting you take up Stackhouse or a Kings Landing District before considering Horn Hill).

Builders arent awarded projects based on “winning people’s love and affection” as you put it, its based in being able to earn your place by demonstrating you have the capability to do a project like Horn Hill justice.

For that reason I highly suggest you once again consider taking on and applying for a project more appropriate for a first time solo lead.

 

[AwbMan]

Im going to be real right here as I stated previously in-server. But you are not ready for a project of this size or caliber

You are a builder whose resume at best has 2 minis and zero solo projects.

This is a terra-heavy project that consists of large portions of the Red Mountains, foothills, forests and river terra, and you have provided zero tests of terra nor do you have experience with terra. And in the face of script’s becoming unusable in 8 days this is a serious concern. And while you have previously handwaved these concerns away in server the fact that you don’t even have terra examples is telling.

This is a project of a major bannerman who requires a higher skill level than you have demonstrated, more than just doing interiors. There is a degree of resume building you need to achieve in order to acquire these “higher-level” projects that you currently lack. And scrambling to latch unto a coop builder to borrow their resume isn’t enough to assuage these concerns.

Its why newly joined builders aren’t allowed to immediately gun after projects like Highgarden or Brightwater Keep without proving they can complete more humble and smaller projects with less canon considerations. They have to build up to it and prove that they are able to complete a project and be able to scale up to it.

For example in order to obtain the permission for the Upper Honeywine I have at a minimum 4 solo projects, and 3 minis. I had to work to earn those projects one by one. Every server project, mega project, and major bannerman is headed by a builder with at least one solo project of note.

Its proof that you have the capability to lead a project and not just leave it abandoned when you get overwhelmed or bored.

And this is not an attack on you as a person as you have stated and insinuated every time these concerns were brought up in-game (including having multiple people suggesting you take up Stackhouse or a Kings Landing District before considering Horn Hill).

Builders arent awarded projects based on “winning people’s love and affection” as you put it, its based in being able to earn your place by demonstrating you have the capability to do a project like Horn Hill justice.

For that reason I highly suggest you once again consider taking on and applying for a project more appropriate for a first time solo lead.

I would like to address a couple of things. My terra example is on my plot, as well as in the Imgur link provided. I would be happy to make more if it would comfort the approving mod team. Secondly, I think that it should be noted that even experienced builders who have done lots of terra drop projects less than half way through, so I don’t think not being as experienced in terra is necessary a contributing factor for why projects are dropped. Another point I would like to make is how I have gotten very close to applying for stackhouse in the past, but extraneous factors prevented me from doing so. I think that we have a fear that inexperience = poor quality work, which I think is a very powerful worry. I have talked to many a person of what to include in my application, and have given clear directions on how I will complete this project should I get it. I am going to say this now: this is my verbal/written commitment that I will finish Horn Hill to server quality standards should I be given the chance to do so. Thank you for your input though.

 

[JJLyric]

Im going to be real right here as I stated previously in-server. But you are not ready for a project of this size or caliber

You are a builder whose resume at best has 2 minis and zero solo projects.

This is a terra-heavy project that consists of large portions of the Red Mountains, foothills, forests and river terra, and you have provided zero tests of terra nor do you have experience with terra. And in the face of script’s becoming unusable in 8 days this is a serious concern. And while you have previously handwaved these concerns away in server the fact that you don’t even have terra examples is telling.

This is a project of a major bannerman who requires a higher skill level than you have demonstrated, more than just doing interiors. There is a degree of resume building you need to achieve in order to acquire these “higher-level” projects that you currently lack. And scrambling to latch unto a coop builder to borrow their resume isn’t enough to assuage these concerns.

Its why newly joined builders aren’t allowed to immediately gun after projects like Highgarden or Brightwater Keep without proving they can complete more humble and smaller projects with less canon considerations. They have to build up to it and prove that they are able to complete a project and be able to scale up to it.

For example in order to obtain the permission for the Upper Honeywine I have at a minimum 4 solo projects, and 3 minis. I had to work to earn those projects one by one. Every server project, mega project, and major bannerman is headed by a builder with at least one solo project of note.

Its proof that you have the capability to lead a project and not just leave it abandoned when you get overwhelmed or bored.

And this is not an attack on you as a person as you have stated and insinuated every time these concerns were brought up in-game (including having multiple people suggesting you take up Stackhouse or a Kings Landing District before considering Horn Hill).

Builders arent awarded projects based on “winning people’s love and affection” as you put it, its based in being able to earn your place by demonstrating you have the capability to do a project like Horn Hill justice.

For that reason I highly suggest you once again consider taking on and applying for a project more appropriate for a first time solo lead.

I get this. The old project i started as my first was a miniscule one in terms of actual map size (lorch) and i still dont think i would be capable of completing, yet that is. But regardless awb good luck on whatever your plans are!

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

I would like to address a couple of things. My terra example is on my plot, as well as in the Imgur link provided.

Where? All I see thats close to a test for terra is a bridge and gate in a forest and a map with lines on it. Where are the tests for the mountains? The river leading into Highgarden? The Foothills? The canon pond that founders of House Tarly met the woods witch? Etc.

Your application doesnt even include the portion of the Rose Road that runs through Horn Hill

Secondly, I think that it should be noted that even experienced builders who have done lots of terra drop projects less than half way through, so I don’t think not being as experienced in terra is necessary a contributing factor for why projects are dropped.

But it is a major consideration, the capability to finish one project is a good indicator of being able to finish another. Your lack of experience is not a point in your favor

Another point I would like to make is how I have gotten very close to applying for stackhouse in the past, but extraneous factors prevented me from doing so.

Such as? You’ve previously stated it was because of terra. What are you going to do about terra in mountainous Horn Hill if an easy flat coastal project like Stackhouse is outside of your ability?

I think that we have a fear that inexperience = poor quality work, which I think is a very powerful worry. I have talked to many a person of what to include in my application, and have given clear directions on how I will complete this project should I get it. I am going to say this now: this is my verbal/written commitment that I will finish Horn Hill to server quality standards should I be given the chance to do so. Thank you for your input though.

I remain unconvinced and my prior point stands

 

[Batelgause]

I have to agree with marge here yet i've got few more things to say.

First of all i wanna say that i like the inspiration you got for the town and the house tests(altough i think they should resemble starpike and vyrwell more)

I remember you saying something like "editors will help me" when you first posted an application for hornhill. I do not believe that is the right mentality to have, while it'd be amazing to have an editor help and guide you there are no guarantees that one will step up, i've had the same issue in my first dropped project foote as well. I think it is essential not to depent on somebody else on your project , when you apply for a project you should have the necessary skills to complete it without depending on other people. Dont get me wrong im not saying nobody will step on to help you im just saying you shouldnt structure your whole plands depending on someone else because it isnt guaranteed you're gonna be recieving the help, its a voluntarily project after all.

And Finally i want to add that you seem to rush the phase of thinking in depth about your project. Its has been only 3-4 days since you uploaded your previous app and you've came up with a new version already. I remember spending days thinking about just the castle layout(i dont suggest you to do so lol) but generally healthier to give this phase the importance it needs.

 

[IMajic]

This should be done as a group project the scope of its content is vast....
Including TONS of terrain to REDO since the project was replaced entirely by grass blocks and means the terrain needs to be completely redone.

This project Would not only have a varied amount of terrain todo stated by Marg above. The highest elevations with the different areas also needs rethinking.
Working on border projects also would require a lot of skill and testing to make them look good and not have a jarring edge on the project bordering the south/Dorne.

There is also a large amount of places to add, Such as a couple of towns of different sizes to think about; since this is one of the oldest and largest houses in ALL the kingdoms.

Economy_
Think about large amounts of industry being close to Highgarden and Oldtown. The lands wouldn't just be hunting and mining. id say yes hunting would be a minor source of internal income for the people of Hornhill, but this would be more people haggling for other things then being a staple income for the region.

As stated Hornhill sits in a wealthy region between Oldtown and Highgarden.
THIS MEANS LOTS OF TRADE, COMMERCE,INDUSTRY, MAYBE WORKSHOPS IN THE TOWNS, LOTS OF AGRARIAN INDUSTRY AND FARMING OF COURSE!
These would be then sold in the towns and maybe even further afield in Highgarden and maybe Oldtown.


Planning and Leadership
Personally this should be done by a group of people who are interested in doing this project.

• someone with lots of experience doing terrain, Creating terrain that will obscure sight-lines as to create space for the varied terrains, using hills in a way to create smaller areas of the project, using the foothills to break up and create small valleys.
• someone with lots of experience with towns so we get some really cute small well laid out towns. hiding within the valleys and maybe on the hills.
• someone who is also great with castles and defences.
• maybe even getting someone in the team who has lots of knowledge with industry would be great.

So Awb, I would ask around for people who want to form a group for this project as I know there are lots that are interested in this project.

This way there is a team who can create a really unique and very well thought out project for one of the most popular houses and this will also flow really well and keep the high standard that is Highgarden next door.

Hope this helps,

Also yes I do like the style of the houses you have made.
Maybe add a bit more of the worn out blocks/ show age and also show some dirt. The Oldtown blocks closer to the Dornish mountainside could be used to show dust/dirt that comes off from the winds from that way.
Maybe if there is a town near to the foot of those mountains think about the building materials present there, there might be use of the arbor blocks but done in a cute Highgarden style. something to also test and play around with further ideas.

-MAJ

 

[AwbMan]

As I said, I would be happy to make more tests for terra.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

The terra is one aspect of a larger concern, the greatest concern is you’re going after a high-tier project with little to no experience with projects, despite multiple people warning you against it.

You have at best 2 minis. Its not enough.

 

[AwbMan]

This should be done as a group project the scope of its content is vast....
Including TONS of terrain to REDO since the project was replaced entirely by grass blocks and means the terrain needs to be completely redone.

This project Would not only have a varied amount of terrain todo stated by Marg above. The highest elevations with the different areas also needs rethinking.
Working on border projects also would require a lot of skill and testing to make them look good and not have a jarring edge on the project bordering the south/Dorne.

There is also a large amount of places to add, Such as a couple of towns of different sizes to think about; since this is one of the oldest and largest houses in ALL the kingdoms.

Economy_
Think about large amounts of industry being close to Highgarden and Oldtown. The lands wouldn't just be hunting and mining. id say yes hunting would be a minor source of internal income for the people of Hornhill, but this would be more people haggling for other things then being a staple income for the region.

As stated Hornhill sits in a wealthy region between Oldtown and Highgarden.
THIS MEANS LOTS OF TRADE, COMMERCE,INDUSTRY, MAYBE WORKSHOPS IN THE TOWNS, LOTS OF AGRARIAN INDUSTRY AND FARMING OF COURSE!
These would be then sold in the towns and maybe even further afield in Highgarden and maybe Oldtown.


Planning and Leadership
Personally this should be done by a group of people who are interested in doing this project.

• someone with lots of experience doing terrain, Creating terrain that will obscure sight-lines as to create space for the varied terrains, using hills in a way to create smaller areas of the project, using the foothills to break up and create small valleys.
• someone with lots of experience with towns so we get some really cute small well laid out towns. hiding within the valleys and maybe on the hills.
• someone who is also great with castles and defences.
• maybe even getting someone in the team who has lots of knowledge with industry would be great.

So Awb, I would ask around for people who want to form a group for this project as I know there are lots that are interested in this project.

This way there is a team who can create a really unique and very well thought out project for one of the most popular houses and this will also flow really well and keep the high standard that is Highgarden next door.

-MAJ

I am open to doing this project with one other person, but I would rather my application for this not become a server project.

 

[AwbMan]

I have to agree with marge here yet i've got few more things to say.

First of all i wanna say that i like the inspiration you got for the town and the house tests(altough i think they should resemble starpike and vyrwell more)

I remember you saying something like "editors will help me" when you first posted an application for hornhill. I do not believe that is the right mentality to have, while it'd be amazing to have an editor help and guide you there are no guarantees that one will step up, i've had the same issue in my first dropped project foote as well. I think it is essential not to depent on somebody else on your project , when you apply for a project you should have the necessary skills to complete it without depending on other people. Dont get me wrong im not saying nobody will step on to help you im just saying you shouldnt structure your whole plands depending on someone else because it isnt guaranteed you're gonna be recieving the help, its a voluntarily project after all.

And Finally i want to add that you seem to rush the phase of thinking in depth about your project. It’s has been only 3-4 days since you uploaded your previous app and you've came up with a new version already. I remember spending days thinking about just the castle layout(i dont suggest you to do so lol) but generally healthier to give this phase the importance it needs.

it should be noted that I have included almost all points of feedback given to me through individual dms, and have spent a good portion of my time in the past couple of days preparing this application.

 

[Enah]

Morning, well, i still think you should have two or three small walled settlements guarding passes into dorne and lots of forested bits. Gem mines huh? That’s actually really unique! One more thing, a few days on an app is very little. It took me 7 months for Bandallon, 2 months for ark and i to colab on the tests and app alone on HG not to mention the changes we later made, and i took around a year to plan Old Anchor’s app. Good luck, my suggestions and opinions from the vc still stand.

 

[EStoop]

Hey Awbman,

Looking at your resumé and the sheer size of this project in terms of name recognition, terraforming, extend and terrain, I strongly advice you to gain a bit more experience with smaller projects in order to get the experience needed to bite off a chunk of this magnitude.
A project like this seems exciting, and I completely understand the interest you have in it, but the amount of work neccesary for something like this is not something to underestimate, especially when taking it up alone. Apart from the challenge this project would bring, it will also coincide with the challenge of managing a project for the first time, which I don't think will combine well.

As for the plans itelf, house Tarly is known for their affinity with hunting to such an extend it's basically their entire identity. The woods around Hornhill are said to be teeming with game. Yet the plans portray an entirely different picture; there is a town, several villages, manors, lumber camps, mines and quite a lot more. It seems to me you planned the valley to be quite densely settled and even industrialised, leaving little space for a healthy stock of forest animals to hunt. In my opinion these forests should be the corner stone of this project, not the filler between the many locations.

Most of the proposed economy seems to be opposite to what would result in forests teeming with game; forests are felled for lumber in order to make luxury furniture and supports for mines, as well to accomodate the mines themselves. Various forms of industry are dotted between patches of forest, making sure no animal will dare to live between them. The main town seems to be located in an economically dead area of the valley, rather than near or along the Rose Road. I would expect an economy that is slightly more accommodating to these hunting grounds, such as cultivating honey, truffles, herbs and other forest materials with little impact on the environment. Maybe there is a single mine somewhere.

I think it's a bit of a copout to say the castle burned down and it was rebuild relatively recently. Adding older structures to the castles we know are really old adds ambience and a sense of history and development. Hornhill is said to have been build (or at least the first version of it) during the Dawn Age. There aren't a lot of castles that can claim that kind of history, and I would expect that to be portrayed.

Having given the above feedback however, I can't stress enough to consider taking up something smaller.
Good luck with the app in any case!

Kind Regards,

Stoop

 

[AwbMan]

Hey Awbman,

Looking at your resumé and the sheer size of this project in terms of name recognition, terraforming, extend and terrain, I strongly advice you to gain a bit more experience with smaller projects in order to get the experience needed to bite off a chunk of this magnitude.
A project like this seems exciting, and I completely understand the interest you have in it, but the amount of work neccesary for something like this is not something to underestimate, especially when taking it up alone. Apart from the challenge this project would bring, it will also coincide with the challenge of managing a project for the first time, which I don't think will combine well.

As for the plans itelf, house Tarly is known for their affinity with hunting to such an extend it's basically their entire identity. The woods around Hornhill are said to be teeming with game. Yet the plans portray an entirely different picture; there is a town, several villages, manors, lumber camps, mines and quite a lot more. It seems to me you planned the valley to be quite densely settled and even industrialised, leaving little space for a healthy stock of forest animals to hunt. In my opinion these forests should be the corner stone of this project, not the filler between the many locations.

Most of the proposed economy seems to be opposite to what would result in forests teeming with game; forests are felled for lumber in order to make luxury furniture and supports for mines, as well to accomodate the mines themselves. Various forms of industry are dotted between patches of forest, making sure no animal will dare to live between them. The main town seems to be located in an economically dead area of the valley, rather than near or along the Rose Road. I would expect an economy that is slightly more accommodating to these hunting grounds, such as cultivating honey, truffles, herbs and other forest materials with little impact on the environment. Maybe there is a single mine somewhere.

I think it's a bit of a copout to say the castle burned down and it was rebuild relatively recently. Adding older structures to the castles we know are really old adds ambience and a sense of history and development. Hornhill is said to have been build (or at least the first version of it) during the Dawn Age. There aren't a lot of castles that can claim that kind of history, and I would expect that to be portrayed.

Having given the above feedback however, I can't stress enough to consider taking up something smaller.
Good luck with the app in any case!

Kind Regards,

Stoop

Thank you for your honesty. I agree that my plans seem a bit random, but most of the locations suggested are actually locations previously approved for Wolf and Dragons. Furthermore, I would also like to add a small piece of headcanon, which states that poaching doesn’t really happen in the lands of Horn Hill, and the woods are pretty much off limits / not frequented by common folk. As per the location of the town, it exists on a smaller hill, so it’s location is a geographical decision. I can move the Arkwright/cabinetry complex to a different location (probably the northwest). I do appreciate your feedback!

 

[AwbMan]

Some edits to my headcanon. After thinking it over, I have agreed that having a fire would be a copout, and therefore the main keep will have been the Lord's donjon, with the other buildings being later additions. This way I can show that there has been a progression of time and a slight update of style throughout the centuries. I will also later when I am on take screenshot of places where extra work will be required, and finishing those would be my #1 priority. A second change I will make will be to not turn the entirety of hornhill into a blank slate, but only the section I am working on. I will also, to Enah's suggestion, be applying for an immersion located in the Red Mountains (a walled village). I will make an update of where the location will be.

 

[Jakethesnake8_8]

Awb, working in the Red Mountains requires competency in terraforming. It’s not the sort of thing you can just “pick up” like I did with Varner terra. It’s the equivalent of throwing a newborn into the sea and telling it to do backstroke. Your ambition is admirable, but you have to be realistic with yourself.
Mountain terrain is not to be taken lightly. My immersion of exclusively terrain has taken the better part of a year and I’m not finished yet, countless other mountain projects take extended periods of time, effort and care. It is grueling work, no matter how ready anyone thinks they are for mountains, they rarely are (myself included). Please consider a project with minimal terrain work, so as not to burn yourself out or create difficulties for yourself.

 

[AerioOndos]

Also just to add a bit to my initial suggestions for semi-precious stone "mining" was in fact for prospecting rather than mining. This is my fault for not being clearer. Rather than digging big holes in the ground, the people would be panning in the stream beds for citrine, zircon or sapphires. Bit less intrusive and wood-intensive, plus would give life to little mountain streams.

Another idea that I communicated poorly was to have quarries of pietre dure, coloured and textured marbles (not white marble though) that produce comparatively little but high value stone. This kind of industry might be better suited to the Reach highlands east of OT though, near Uplands, Yelshire and Pommingham where a higher population would make sense. Not featuring these at Hornhill might better suit the forester theme of the Tarly's.

Doing an immersion build of a walled village in one of the valleys SW of Horn Hill, just south of /warp sunseed could work well as a way to whet-your-teeth on both terraforming experience and practice delegating, plotting and the general managing of a project. I've attached an image of the area I'm suggesting for it, outlined in orange, together with the vague borders of nearby projects. Scale wise it's much more manageable, plus fills in an area of uncompleted Reach that otherwise seems a weird dead end.

 

[AwbMan]

I appreciate the clarification Aeks. I will make the update in my app.

To Jake's point, I understand how time consuming terra will be, especially with the update. HOWEVER, it should be noted that the red mountains are only a fraction of the terra required for Horn Hill, with the majority of it being woods and valleys. This is not to say I will not do my absolute best on the mountains. I think that a lack of trust in my abilities to do the terra has been established, so if we could move towards comments on my application itself that would be much appreciated. As I have talked about in the past, I intend to apply for a large immersion of a mountain walled village, starting tonight. Location will be given when I am online and have had time to do some looking around.

 

[AwbMan]

Update on terrain info/science:

The Red Mountains are red due to a high concentration of Iron Sulfide. This, like all minerals, is beneficial to plants in small amounts. However, should weathering occur, the Iron Sulfide will turn into Iron Oxide, which is rust. This is highly toxic to plants and therefore, any area that uses the Arbor terrainset and/or the Red Mountains terrainset would be barren of plant life. So where would these terrainsets be used? Both of these blocks and their variants would only be used at the tops of the mountains. As we would continue down the slope of the mountain, we would use the Reach terrainset and it's variant as the main terrainset.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

There are more ways for rocks to be red than just iron, hematite for example, and the amount of Iron Oxide needed to make an entire region barren is far above what most rock deposits have. The Rio Tinto in Spain for example is toxic only because of hundreds of years of human intervention and mining. Every other river surrounding rich iron deposits does not have the same issue with plantlife.

And furthermore the “Red Mountains” does not just refer to the immediate ridge of mountains separating the Reach and Dorne, it refers to the entire mountain range and it’s associated environs. Stop thinking of the mountains as a border wall and more of a region in it of itself.



But more importantly I think you’re avoiding the multiple people who are advising you to not focus on Horn Hill and instead opt for a smaller project like the valley that Aek suggested or Stackhouse. You are not going to obtain this project by sheer attrition.