Oldtown: Hightower and Battle Island

[Howy]

Update 01/2021: Clarification: The information in this thread regarding the Battle Isle/Hightower Server Build is outdated and inaccurate. Thread kept alive for posterity. -Iwan




Subproject Lead: Howy

Subproject Information:

Oldtown Document
Canon Document
Inspiration Folders

Subproject Information and Dates: N/A (Serverbuild date TBD)

Plans: See below.


This subproject will be different to other neighborhoods and server builds throughout Oldtown. Rather then taking a singular approach, which has resulted in builders suddenly have new and bright ideas halfway through a server build, the Hightower and Battle Island subproject will allow all builders to 'apply' with their Hightower and/or Battle Island visions as well as collate their ideas. The rules are simple:

- Be respectful of other players' ideas. As with all server builds, everyone has very particular ideas as to how the Hightower/Battle Island should appear, look, or 'feel'. The purpose of this thread is that builders and mods have a forum to propose their own idea as if they were themselves leading the project without the influence of others.

- Know that I will have to make tough decisions regarding what elements to incorporate into the tower, and what not to. Exclusion of your idea from the final project does not necessarily mean I disliked it - just that there was, in my opinion and with advice from the mod team, a better element to be included. Executive decisions will have to be made to move the project forward, and its both possible that these decisions favour or reject your own ideas and proposals.

- Only one 'ideas'/proposal post per builder. This does not apply to feedback to other builders' posts, only to the original 'ideas' or 'application' post a builder makes. For example, [Player 1] posts his Hightower mini and subsequent plans/suggestions. [Player 2] replies with his own feedback. [Player 2] can still make an 'ideas' post himself/herself, as long as the aforementioned feedback post does not include a counterproposal. If feedback consists of a counterproposal, I will ask the builder to make a distinct 'ideas' post of its own and instead refer to that post in their feedback reply. This allows me (and others) to easily refer to [Player 1]'s proposal, or [Player 2]'s proposal.

- Proposals should include the builder's in-game name, pictures or images or their in-game designs/ideas where applicable, and written reasons for said ideas. I'm okay if your reasons are literally just 'I think its cool' - be aware that the chances of accepting the idea shrink significantly should this be the case.

- No polls. I don't want builders to attempt to dominate the ideas of other builders through contests of popularity which - considering the minimal forum use of some server members - is not, in my opinion, a legitimate source of information regarding a project's popularity, let alone its suitability.


Some notes:

- Builders will have until the 1st of April AEST to put forward their ideas before the suggestions are action-ed into a final product and building commences. I will create a new thread for feedback to the final product, although the final product - having drawn heavily on the ideas suggested here - will look for feedback relating to how well features (proposals) have been put together, rather than specific features themselves.

- There are NO restrictions on your proposals. Hightower tests, etc, do not need to be a specific palette, shape, size, or architectural style.

- This thread is for suggestions and then subsequent feedback to those suggestions. The current tower onsite is irrelevant, and only interior layouts will likely be brought over (I did too much research on larders and saucerers to leave those behind).

- Posts not relevant to the discussion, or breaking the above rules, will be deleted.

- This is very much a test of a new idea. I hope that it works suitably well in the end, and may inspire future serverbuild leads to pursue a similar forum-style thread. For now, however, I can only confirm that this specific serverbuild will be subject to this form of idea-sharing, but depending on its success will recommend it be used for other subprojects in Oldtown.

 

[Howy]

I will note as well here (while also reserving this second post) that proposals are only to be for exterior layout and design. Interior design can be proposed in the form of room tests, etc. However, planning of the interior layout of the tower itself will be done by me during the final tower design phase (i.e. at a later date). Please do not submit whole dining hall, ball room proposals, etc. Room tests are welcome ofc, as are any sweet ideas for actual decor such as beds, etc.

 

[Howy]

Bump!

Twenty days have passed since this first post, with no ideas, proposals, or feedback having yet been received here. I am aware of a few tests in progress, and encourage any builders to make haste in posting those proposals/ideas to this forum.

It is admittedly disappointing to see a lack of ideas. I was hoping for this to be a community thought bubble in which Hightower versions could develop. Should a single test be presented here, while I will not solely rely on it for ideas, it will no doubt very strongly influence the final product.

Suffice to say, while feedback and criticism is always welcome, the lack of contributions to this forum is a concerning sign. If the situation is the same by the time work on the Hightower commences, it will be looked disapprovingly on to provide ideas and suggestions after its built (read: after the fact). This was, and still is, the builder community's chance to put their money where their mouth is and actually provide ideas rather than just criticism.

To give the community more time and a better chance to assemble their ideas and tests, I am extending the due date to the 8th of April 11:59pm AEST.

Any tests posted here will be openly subject to feedback/criticisms for one week (until 15th of April 11:59pm AEST) before I begin work on the Hightower.

 

[EStoop]

I know I am (part of) the reason for this thread, but I simply do not have the time right now to test for the Hightower. However, the stuff I've seen made by Infinity pretty much is what I had in mind for the tower; tall, narrow and slightly angled walls without too much intricate details and with well-considered aspects in mind such as maintenance, history and durability.

Examples of what I find exceptionally well-done in his tests are:

• A stone, spire-like roof for the top of the tower; this is the most durable and weather-resistant solution. Roof tiling is more prone to breaking or being blown off by strong winds, and metalic roofs generally can't handle open fires well, including the smoke.
• Most of the tower has slightly angled walls, using wall blocks. I think this is a really nice feature that is also very realistic, and would also look very neat with the new hole-less wall blocks we might have in the future.
• The entrance to the castle is the original blackfort maze. It makes sense from a defensive point of view, but it is also very likely that the black stone is much harder to alter than normal stone, making changes to the blackfort unlikely.
• Narrow design, which makes the tower look taller. I believe inf made Battle Island itself higher and rockier than the other tests.

 

[Trystane Truefyre]

Hi! I really do think the Hightower should have a library/observatory with a big telescope (or a "Myrish eye") on one of the higher-ish levels. I think it's the kind of style Oldtown has, what with the Citadel and the Order of Maesters and whatnot.

 

[Enah]

Why would the Hightower have it? The citadel would be the place, Hightower would be too windy and corrosive for such things. I’m also unsure if they have such technology (ink soneone find a quote)

 

[Trystane Truefyre]

Why would the Hightower have it? The citadel would be the place, Hightower would be too windy and corrosive for such things. I’m also unsure if they have such technology (ink soneone find a quote)

I simply suggested the Hightower might have it because we don't know Lord Leyton all that well, so maybe he might be interested in learning some of the things that many of his subjects are learning too. We do know they have that kind of technology, for they have telescopes they call "far-eyes" or "Myrish-eyes" (I can't find any quotes in the books now, but you can learn about far-eyes here and about Westerosi technology here).
You are probably right though about it not having the right conditions for it; I hadn't thought about that.

 

[EStoop]

Stuff like that is located at the Citadel, which is sponsored by the Hightowers. If the Hightower's have a sudden urge to gaze at the stars in an observatory, they can go there. Same goes for massive amounts of books. The Hightower's seem rather fine prancing around the city so I do not think they'd be skittish to visit the the Citadel.

Myrish eyes are so small that we can't properly represent them in minecraft.

 

[Gaemon Palehair]

Actually, Lord Hightower hasn't descended from the Hightower in at least a decade.

 

[Enah]

The Hightower’s include extended family who are either in the tower, the palace or manors around the city. Families like these tend to be rather large with extensive family units. Lannisport is full of rich/nobility that are branches of the Lannister clan.

 

[Fin]

Here's my app for the Hightower (henceforth abbreviated: HT)

Part I (bc apparently you can't post more than 10'000 characters)
Fancy-shmancy shader pic cuz i'm super extra:

Warp is FinsHT

Ok, so I'll let the test speak for itself, but will attempt to outline my thoughts behind some of the more contested ideas in it. Also, as of now this is mostly an app for the Hightower itself, as my plans for the battle isle are very undefined and unsure. I'll include a section where I'll give some thoughts on the planning of the battle isle though (and I will continue making tests/models/layouts for it).

Battle Isle (terra)
The battle isle is quite a bit taller than in all previous tests I'm aware of for the HT. The reason is that I want the battle isle to form a solid pedestal for the HT to stand on, and not shrink under the HT's size. Also I want it to be an obvious choice for building an ancient fort on, and a noticeable feature of Oldtown.
In terms of the terraforming and the geology of it I went for a sorta terraced/slabbed rock formation, like one might see in southern France (e.g. Ardèche), though I am open to amendments and suggestions for more realistic rocky islands in river deltas. I didn't bother doing much research on rocky islands in river deltas. Perhaps someone else is so inclined.

The Black Fort
This might be the most contested idea in my app, but at the same time I am also extremely convinced by it. The black fort I designed (with help from SMP and Estoop, et al.) has no corner towers and no specific features; it's just a sloped, square black mass which is supposed to look deeply nestled into the battle isle, as if it's naturally part of it. Also it's designed to look as foreign in contrast to anything in Westeros with a similar defensive function (hence no crennelations and no corner towers).

The Entrance
The entrance is equally obscure and is designed more as an annoyance and hindrance the HTs had to build around: We decided in chat that the black fort's stone can't be tunnelled through (it being an ancient magical object) which is why the HTs had to adapt to it: The ancient entrance still remains, which is a bronze door with a mechanism leading into the black fort. One then has to navigate through the canonical maze in order to get to the HT.
The inconvenience of this lead the HTs then to create something like a lift and drawbridge over the black wall, from a building outside of the walls, which now acts as the main entry point to the HT, while the maze-entrance is mostly unused (though it remains a piece of pride for the HTs who've learned to navigate it; Similar to the Arryns and the Eyrie and those who manage to climb the last bit from Sky to the Eyrie as opposed to riding the basket).
My plans for the Battle Isle so far also foresee a second lower courtyard connecting to the docs which is where all supplies going into the HT end up. From here supplies are lifted over the Black Fort with cranes.

Design of the tower
A defence for the angled walls: They add a small sense of realism to an otherwise completely unrealistic building, they help with the perspective (by shrinking towards the top it looks like the tower is disappearing into the sky) and given the advent of smooth wall blocks I think this feature will look very convincing.
The angled walls also play into a thought I had for the structural integrity of the building: Basically, the walls increase in thickness as much as they do on the inside as they do on the outside. This means that at the base of the center tower I estimate a wall thickness around 9-11 blocks.

Another somewhat new concept is that my HT converges from a square tower to a round one on top. I drew inspiration on the Tower of Hercules in La Coruña, Spain, a 2nd century roman lighthouse (which has been renovated in the 18th century to look the way it does today). According to wikipedia it's the oldest extant lighthouse remaining.

Spoiler: Pics: Historical relief and a current photograph

This is where the square to round idea came from, and also the somewhat wonky stone roof inbetween. That, and the Lighthouse of Alexandria were my main inspirations.

The tip
I made roughly 10 different tip designs which are all floating around the HT in a grid (so I can easily paste each of them onto it. Howy, if you'd like to see how the other tips look like on it, feel free to move them around. They're all distributed in multiples of 50. Note: The height of the round bit varies sometimes which makes pasting each of them on sometimes a bit difficult).
I believe the current design, as well as the steeper stone spire are my current favourites, as well as the north-eastern variants which mirror the Tower of Hercules.
Note: I am growing rather attached to the stone spired roofs, a) bc of logic (for which I'll take the architect, stoop, by his word) and b) it's wonderfully unique, while fulfilling a purpose, which I think is something the HT deserves.

The beacon
A remaining issue I'm unsure about, though I think we're definitely heading in the right direction, is the fire. I did some research (some of which you'll have to take me by my word bc I couldn't find the source anymore) and decided that any form of wooden fire would be incredibly inefficient and resource-consuming (apparently wooden fires easily burnt a ton or more of wood per night).

Here's an excerpt for how the Lighthouse of Alexandria might have been fueled

Wood was scarce in Egypt and one only can conjecture how the beacon fire was fueled. Possibly there were bundles of papyrus roots, which Theophrastus says were used as firewood, the roots being "abundant and good" (Inquiry into Plants, IV.8.3; also Pliny, Natural History, XIII.72). Or a naphtha-fueled fire is possible. Dried animal dung, although used in cooking, presumably would not have burned brightly enough. Whatever the source of the fire, its intensity was increased by a burnished bronze mirror, which in the daytime also would have reflected the sun. This, together with the towering white structure itself and smoke from the fire, if it continued to burn during the day, would have offered further direction to the mariner.

Source: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/greece/paganism/pharos.html

The "Laterna" or "Lighthouse of Genoa" in Genoa built roughly in 1128 used

Dried pieces of erica and juniper wood were used to fuel the signal fire in its early years.

to fuel the fire.

In 1326 the first oil-based lantern, whose fire was fed by olive oil, was added to the structure,

(Wikipedia).

Here's another site listing the history of lighthouse illumination:
http://uslhs.org/lighthouse-lamps-through-time

With all this in mind I decided that we'll have to steer away from historical accuracy and use a more sophisticated method for creating a constantly burning and sufficiently bright light. Also given the wind speeds I'd expect at that height I think enclosing the fire in glass isn't a ridiculous idea, and also speak in favour of an oil-fueled fire.

Lighthouse keepers may have added combustible liquids to reduce the expenditure on fuel and keep the light steady during gales, but little information exists in the literature from the time. It may also be possible that the light was protected from the wind by glass windows, and large mirrors may have assisted in projecting the light beam as far as possible.

(Wikipedia)

 

[Fin]

Part II

Another argument in favour of more sophisticated illumination than were available up to the end of the middle ages arises if one compares the timeline. The scarce Hightower canon (yes Stoop, I read your canon doc) doesn't list an age, but given the age of Oldtown and the Citadel, presumably the HT is very old and has always functioned as a lighthouse, before it became a residence for a noble family. Given the amount of time the Citadel and the HT's had to develop an efficient, bright lighthouse beacon, and also taking into account that Oldtown is considered to be the centre of science in the world, I think it's not unreasonable to assume they'd have gotten to some form of advanced oil-fueled beacons by now. The current beacon in place in my HT is the brainchild of Nuggs (thx mate), who designed what he describes as essentially a huge, primitive flamethrower.

Somehow I would like to add mirrors or lenses in there as well, so the light might be magnified, though as you can imagine, given our restrictive and clumsy blocks this is easier said than done. I started looking into what might constitute a reasonable, ancient magnifying mirror and came up with some sort of 18th century inverted disco-ball:


Other possibilities include the polished bronze mirrors, which supposedly were used in Alexandria.

Or "modern" lenses which might have been designed in coordination with Maesters in the citadel. The science behind lenses is relatively trivial and given the picture of the library in the citadel which extensively uses lenses for lighting I don't think this is too much of a stretch:



Either way, on the topic of the beacon I would like to hear some opinions and and feedback on what makes most sense. Unfortunately the research into ancient lighthouse illumination seems to be mostly non-existent or inconclusive which awards us a little bit of freedom in how we interpret the beacon on the HT.

Also, unless anyone has a ingenious idea of how to make either a mirror or a lense I think we might need to look into developing a new block for that (which could also be used in the citadel).

The Battle Isle

As you can see from the existing plotting, this is being worked on, but definitely not definitive. That being said, I will continue by outlining some of my thoughts behind the plotting (and repeating myself from earlier on in the post):

I'm beginning to envision the Battle Isle as a rather messy, on the northern slope built up island, with stacked, terraced buildings and winding roads leading up, with terraced gardens up to the cliffs, and generally plenty of greenery poking out between the buildings.

Currently I'm rather fond of the idea of having a main courtyard by the ancient entrance to the maze, lined by buildings, one of which with the drawbridge leading over the blackfort into the HT. This courtyard would be the one nobles use, therefore also accordingly fancily designed. Adjacent, but lower to that one, connected my a small staircase, would be the more industrial yard which is where all supplies from the docs get craned up to. From here another crane lifts the supplies over the black wall into the HT.

Further I envision a well used road between the two bridges and regular bustling houses (albeit very high-class ones), with a gatehouse on the southern side of it, connecting to the road which feeds into the walled HT-complex of Mansions, the Sept, Warehouses etc. Each bridge has a drawbridge and a gatehouse to potentially cut off the island from the mainland.





Ok, I believe that's all, as for my app. Apologies for my rambling and perhaps occasional incoherency. If anything remains unclear or I should elaborate anywhere please let me know, I'll be glad to do so.

Finally I would like to underline that this application is part of a team effort; That it isn't mine alone and that while building I tried listening to feedback and also getting other people involved in building.

Spoiler: Acknowledgements

My thanks go to Estoop for general encouragement , honest feedback and help with construction, Nuggs for helping me a ton with construction of the HT itself and the tests for the Battle Isle and the conceptualising of the beacon, SMP for feedback and testing for the Battle isle, Emil for feedback and help in plotting the Battle Isle, Ark for help in planning and plotting the Battle isle and everyone else who I forgot to list for their feedback and help.

I would also like to add in the end, that given that this is presumably the only entry for the Hightower, that if anyone fundamentally or partially disagrees with the ideas put forth in this app, that they should vocalise their concerns, even if those concerns don't accompany a counter-proposal built in game.

I think given that our OT/HT timeline being incredibly optimistic (I'm guessing we wont start OT until 2019) that there's plenty of time for updating, improving and reshaping the HT until we end up building OT around it, and even more time until OT is done. That being said, I do think that by choosing a design now we are already taking a considerable step into a specific direction. And while I don't believe there is ever a time to not give feedback on any aspect of a build, now would be a most convenient time to raise concerns about the more fundamental decisions I made with this app (e.g. the scale, square HT, black fort...).

(Personally I would even like to suggest adding the caveat that the HT may be adjusted and worked on until OT is done. So we don't prematurely call the HT done and locked and then end up loathing it by the end of OT bc our style has developed far beyond what it is now.)


lemme know what you think, and don't hold back

thx for reading

-Fin

 

[Wazgamer]

When does Part III come out?

 

[Fin]

Pre-orders start on friday.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

Will there be DLC

 

[Howy]

Hey so I've looked through the app and just need to go through it more thoroughly with actual feedback. Currently, besides the ideas suggested beforehand, your app Fin is the only one with a full test and accompanying ideas. I suspect it will strongly influence the final tower, but I will note some brief things here:

- Battle Isle (terra): Yep looks lovely. We will reterra on site but being perfectly honest I think what you've done would work as fine inspiration. Making it taller seems to work well, I'll need to take a closer look ingame.

- Black Fort: This is well thought out, might does not seem viable within the minecraft scope. I suspect it will end up looking odd in comparison (as, ofc, that is the goal). A compromise would work well, perhaps with corner towers but not too obviously protruding (one-two blocks 'sticking outwards' width-wise from the walls). Will address more specifically in-game.

- 'The Entrance' pI: Is this entrance canon? If not, I'd rather stick with your idea about not tunneling through, but have an original entrance similar in size to Maegors (read: not RK; the 6-high, 3-wide maegors door). I realise that it is of an origin estranged from the residing civilization, but I'd rather we not get too weird and too Alien. While its possible the Hightowers may have gone great steps to go around a tiny door, I'd rather we just make it easier instead of forcing a difficulty through interpretation.

- 'The Entrance' pII: "navigate through the canonical maze" I take issue with this bit. It needs to be pointed out the fort is not a canon maze. It is described as "labyrinthine" - defined as either 'irregular and twisting' or 'intricate and confusing'. The interiors of the Black Fort should be just this, not necessarily a maze but confusing and easy to get lost in. I have a building on my uni campus just like this, and designed to be 'labyrinthine' - this does not make it a maze. I realise that the accompanying canon suggestion of the 'mazemakers' of Lorath. I think the Black Fort will need to have confusing interiors within the Black Fort level, but does not need to be a maze like that of Highgarden. TWOIAF likely used the description to describe small, twisting corridors in which one can easily get lost.

- 'The Entrance' pIII: I currently cannot access the server. Could you please confirm on the topic of the Entrance and the Black Fort whether you have elected that the Black Fort be one of thick walls which originally had a hollow interior WITHIN which the HT was built, or was a complete fortress on TOP of which the HT was built. This is important for your suggestion regarding the labyrinthine nature of the fort.

- Design of the Tower: Love it, definitely smoother and isn't nearly as bad as I thought it might look with the wall blocks. I don't mind the square to round nature either. Square all up might make interior planning easier, however.

- The Tip: I'll try different tips in-game once I can access the server again. I'm not keen on the stone-spire roofs, since I think that the top should stand in contrast as a 'roof'. I think metallic roofs will be fine (oxidized bronze). The argument that they can't handle open fires well seems void if the underside of said roofs is 'contained' by stone.

- The Beacon: If we can do oil, I'd want to do that. I don't know if its possible we could get an oil block or just use obsidian with fire on top? I'm happy with whatever would be most fuel efficient but still historically accurate. This is definitely something that can be discussed during the development of the Hightower. I'm all for the bronze mirrors too if we can pull that off (again, for me its mainly about whether it works in minecraft or not - 'looks good', etc - would rather avoid anything too weird or beyond mc capabilties).

- Battle Isle: I'd ask you hold off on Battle Isle planning for now. I think planning of the isle will occur after more of the city has been developed. Currently I have some ideas I wish to implement BUT they are dependent on the interior planning of the Hightower (which will occur onsite). As such while planning and ideas are welcome, I must forewarn you that development of the Isle is highly subject to be A. Later than the Hightower and B. Subsequently, dependent on what we manage to fit into the Hightower itself.


That is what I have to say for now. The feedback is brief, and really only addresses concerns quickly and inaccurately. I'd ask you think on it all the same, and welcome others to provide feedback independent of my own to Fin's app or in reply to my feedback on top of Fin's app.

In regards to timing of the Hightower, due to OT development seemingly stalling for a bit and uni becoming increasingly busy for the foreseeable future, I suspect that Hightower development onsite will not begin for another month or two at least. It is for this reason I have been flexible on timing of proposals submitted. If people have any issues, problems, feedback, concerns, counter-proposals, NOW is the time to act on them. I will be, admittedly, pissed off if large or important ideas of the Hightower that have been proposed now are only criticized in a few months time when onsite work begins - or worse, towards the end of the tower. Said criticism will be rejected, straight up, if I or any other mod finds it unreasonable or 'late'. Feedback is one thing, and bitching another. The former is welcome here and for the couple of months, and I look forward to hearing ideas, proposals, and suggestions for the Hightower Fin has presented and any subsequent or accompanying feedback.

 

[Thamus_Knoward]

Feedback is one thing, and bitching another. The former is welcome here and for the couple of months, and I look forward to hearing ideas, proposals, and suggestions for the Hightower Fin has presented and any subsequent or accompanying feedback.

I'll be taking a look at the plans in detail and offer suggestions. Do you happen to know if my original model is still around? It contained a detailed list of ideas for the interior of the HT.

 

[Howy]

I'll be taking a look at the plans in detail and offer suggestions. Do you happen to know if my original model is still around? It contained a detailed list of ideas for the interior of the HT.

I am unsure sorry Tham whether its still around. I remember it use to be but a lot of movement of the OT test area occurred outside of my knowledge (creation of otBI warp, etc). I'd love it if it could be found though, I'd really appreciate the ideas for interiors.

 

[EStoop]

Prior to the restructure of the Oldtown testing area there was a period of time in which people could mark their tests to be ported to the new testing area. Everything that was marked has been saved, and is placed at /warp otarchive, though some are placed in their according testing areas.

If the model was marked Thamus, it should be at either /warp otarchive or /warp otdefense.

edit: Only applies for stuff from the testworld, if you're talking about the model that was present at /warp oldtown then I have no idea what happened to it.

 

[Emoticone11]

- 'The Entrance' pII: "navigate through the canonical maze" I take issue with this bit. It needs to be pointed out the fort is not a canon maze. It is described as "labyrinthine" - defined as either 'irregular and twisting' or 'intricate and confusing'.

The difference between a "labyrinth" and a "maze" is that a labyrinth tends to consist of one intricate and winding path, but with no dead ends, whereas the maze consists of a number of paths, many of them ending in dead ends. (Pictured). Labyrinths in real life were often intended for spiritual or religious purposes, representing a long and tedious path someone had to follow, often while reflecting/praying along the way. In contrast, mazes are intended as puzzles meant to confuse people and test their spatial skills.

In light of the canon behind the Hightower labyrinth, it should be of the former type- a single long and winding corridor, with no branches or dead-ends, taking up the entire base of the tower (perhaps with a room of unknown purpose in the center).