Approved House Santagar of the Spottswood - 7 and Steele

[7JG7]

Hello everyone! Please find below mine and KDSteele's application for House Sanatagar of the Spottswood.

House Santagar of Spottswood

docs.google.com

 

[Azulejo]

If I don't reply to this before Friday you can bury me at the Pit.​

 

[AerioOndos]

It's friday in Australia

 

[AerioOndos]

I need to have another schwizz at the document but my main feedback is to not be afraid of greening up the SE faces of the slopes. Remember that the storms that make the rain wood wet go over the stepstones.
Some of that moisture would hit the mainland part of the broken arm as well! Only 1/2 of the storms that go up the narrow sea from there get to the Rainwood iirc.

also don't put in big sand desert! The deep desert with proper dunes etc is between Sandstone, Vaith and Hellholt. The broken arm is probably much greener, though a lot stonier. Your mid level dryness tests would probably be most of the dryland area, with the most severe saved for isolated leeside (side not facing the wind) slopes in parts of the interior

 

[7JG7]

I need to have another schwizz at the document but my main feedback is to not be afraid of greening up the SE faces of the slopes. Remember that the storms that make the rain wood wet go over the stepstones.
Some of that moisture would hit the mainland part of the broken arm as well! Only 1/2 of the storms that go up the narrow sea from there get to the Rainwood iirc.

also don't put in big sand desert! The deep desert with proper dunes etc is between Sandstone, Vaith and Hellholt. The broken arm is probably much greener, though a lot stonier. Your mid level dryness tests would probably be most of the dryland area, with the most severe saved for isolated leeside (side not facing the wind) slopes in parts of the interior

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Tobi]

If I don't reply to this before Friday you can bury me at the Pit.​

Get the shovels ready!!

 

[Azulejo]

Hey guys! First of all sorry for the long wait hahahaha, life sometimes gets on the way and I didn't want to reply to this with a poorly thought-out post, so I had to wait ti'll I had a good chunk of free time to dedicate to it. We've been talking a bit about the project for a while now, so I think it is safe to say that the general vision is something I'm happy with! This is a very nice app and it shows work and thought has been put into it! I will now give you both more specific FB to polish it. It may seem like a lot but you'll see most points are pretty minor changes, I just like to be very nitpicky, more so with my loved Dorne.

General plans
Overall really nice! I have little to say, mostly stuff that would be better to decide in site with proper scale in mind. Regarding the work flow you plan to have, rather than doing all of the terra at once, I think it is best to do it in stages, in case that isn't what was planned from the start. I think the structure of the lands of Spottswood allows for that nicely, as one can do 1 finger at a time. This is mostly to avoid big placeholder patches to take over the map for ages, and it is something we are trying to encourage more in general.

There is a river at your plans, though I would call it a stream. It should probably be dried up as we are at the late stages of summer and small streams and even decently sized rivers dry up in summer in Mediterranean ambients, like Spottswood is. There's a couple of dried up river beds you can take as a reference both in the main map and lost around on the test world. Jake has made a couple really nice tests if you want to check them. I'll leave here some inspo as well.

Making the river dried up may mean some changes in the way you plan the crops and irrigated areas within the main valley. I suggest rather than using a canal coming from the stream, which would be an unreliable source for water, you use qanats or groundwater to irrigate the crops. Qanats are widely used in The Tor, if you need an in-game reference. Also make sure the irrigation channels have an output! I'd say they can feed onto the river for the water discharge.

This all will be easier to plan in production. Btw I think it is worth mentioning that while irrigation is needed for certain crops like fruit trees and some vegetables, this area would be able to sustain dryland farming for stuff like wheat, olives or wineyards. Another thing regarding crops is the use of terraces! I think they can fit nicely here. Once again that is something that can be more easily planned once you start the project. I also leave here a irrigation ditch for reference (this is part of a system here in southern Spain that dates back from muslim times, so it fits perfectly!).


Terraforming
Overall good job with the tests and plans! As Aeks pointed out greenifying a little bit more the southern slopes of the fingers would be ideal, as they would be hit with the storms going north through the Stepstones. In general don't be afraid to greenify, all of eastern Dorne is meant to go under that process eventually. You have a buffer dune desert terra area planned, which makes sense as a temporary solution, but be aware that eventually the desert bordering your project will be gone (there is a small desert/dune patch between Sunspear and Ghost Hill/the Greenblood, but that would not affect this area). So feel free to extend the greenified area further west up to the dynmap border.

This means having more of the "dusty" terrain as well as potentially expanding the green areas of the valleys. Also, as I've mentioned before, Grey Gallows is a great example of a dry Mediterranean landscape, on top of looking at The Tor/Ghost Hill for reference. It's okay if you add some bushes sprinkled around on this terrain on top of the grass patches you already have: palmito, thyme, rosemary, oleander, lavander... Here is some reference pics for that landscape, it falls between what you labelled as "arable" and "dusty":


You should remove most of the flowers at your green terra tests. Once again, we are at the end of summer and most flowers wouldn't be around. You can leave some flowering bushes like Oleander as they do flower in late summer, but most of the 1 block flowers should go. You can keep the reddish northern flowers you have used at the cliff tests, those add an interesting look. Also from an aesthetic POV I think having too many types of flowers looks odd, as there's a seemingly random combination of colours that doesn't really go together.

Regarding the tree schems, it seems like you are planning on using cypresses as part of the forests. Don't, they would be planted by humans. They can be part of gardens, farm edges... but not the forests, it looks a bit odd IMO. Respecting the sandbeggars, I saw you are thinking of trying alternative schems for them. I agree on that, as I think our sandbeggar schems look a bit dated. I'd say we can use this project as an excuse to make a new sandbeggar schem. Perhaps argan trees can be a good reference? We'll see, I'll try to give it a try, or yourself if you want to. Having said that, I leave here some Mediterranean pine forests as reference for the forested terra: 1, 2.

The town
Looks like you are going to use the façades of the houses at the town as part of the wall, right? If so that is a great idea, and fits really nicely! The town looks significantly smaller than The Tor's, so I'd say don't make the walls too big, thick or prominent, more like something between Tor's town and /warp torhamlet3. Also make sure to warp the wall around the whole town, right now the sea side is open.

Another suggestion I have regarding the town is to have a beach port instead of some docks. In general we don't use these enough and they would be the most common type of port. Basically just a beach were ships will dock, right by the walls of the town.

Something else that might be worth considering is its style. While it is nice overall and does follow the path layed down by The Tor, I think given its location it is worth trying something different, more influenced by andalusi/magrebi housing and planning. Here I have some references for layout and general shape. I think this is best to try and tackle while we are all online, so make sure to hit me up on disc and we can set a time to try and test it a little. As of right now I have most mornings free, so that is an option we can take.


The castle
If any changes are done do not make it any bigger, house Santagar is a landed kight and as of right now the size of the castle is already pushing what we consider appropiate for it.

I'd remove most if not all of the pebble layers that you have put at the roofs of the castle, I think it makes it look busy and also if those areas are on use they would be somewhat cleaned. You can have some small piles of pebbles at corners ocassionally, if you so desire. I assume you are doing it to cover the odd changes of material at the ceiling below, I think it might be worth to add a block in height to house the floor material for the roofs rather than covering with pebbles.

This tower right here has a pretty odd shape, I'd say you should rework it and make it have a regular shape (rectangle, square... it can be diagonal ofc, but a regular polygon). For the same reason this tile roof here should be reworked, perhaps it is just easier to make it a flat roof.


I think you need to make your main tower more prominent, as well as have it be a single body instead of a series of towers glued together at different levels. Visual hierarchy helps a lot when making castles, so IMO it is appropiate to give a bit more promenance to the main keep. You know I was more fond of the version of the current castle with a big square tower, you don't have to go back to that but something on that line might be it.

Still not sold on the onion dome turrets, I would not make them onion domes, and perhaps remove one of them so the castle courtyard is a bit less busy. I'd would remove the salt pans too. They can be elswhere in the project but beneath the castle I think makes it look like there's too many ideas in one spot. Also remove the palms at the cliffs, they won't grow there and also they are really thin for their size. Palm trunks are thin but not that thin. I'd say a fence post can be warped with both your hands but a palm tree trunk of that size wouldn't. Here is some cliff vegetation in case you need references.

Canon
Don't worry, you didn't miss anything, these are just suggestions I make based on what we know for the area. Given the fact that fishing villages were prominent in eastern Dorne at the early stages of the First Men colonization, it could be interesting to have fishing and fishing-related stuff be prominent in Spottswood. You have a couple fishing hamlets, but what about tuna fishing with almadrabas? Or perhaps escabeche making? You have all the ingredients in the area for it, it would be I think a great addition!

Also, as you may know there is a couple (a dozen or so) canon First Men houses that lived in the Greenblood and eastern Dorne before the arrival of the Andals. Some of those were wiped out by them, but not all, so it could be interesting if one of the few we know was/is located somewhere in this project, either alive as a landed knight or as the remains of their old fortifications/castle. Here is the canon I'm referencing:​

A second, rival High King of Dorne also existed during the times of the First Men, ruling from a great wooden motte-and-bailey castle on the south bank of Greenwood near Lemonwood, where the river flows into the Summer Sea. This was a curious kingship, for whenever a king died, his successor was chosen by election from amongst a dozen noble families that had settled along the river or the eastern shores. The Wades, Shells, Holts, Brooks, Hulls, Lakes, Brownhills, and Briars all threw up kings who ruled from the high hall amongst the lemon trees, but in the end this curious system broke down when a disputed election set the royal houses to warring against one another. After a generation of conflict, three of the old houses were wiped from the earth, and the once powerful river realm had shattered into a dozen quarrelsome petty kingdoms.​

As you see we know three of these were wiped out at one point, but we don't know which ones, so we can use that information at our will. It is also worth metioning how these houses have names tied to the location they come from, that hint how it could look.​

And on the eastern shore, between the Broken Arm and the Greenblood, an Andal adventurer named Morgan Martell and his kin descended on lands loosely held by House Wade and House Shell, defeated them in battle, seized their villages, burned their castles, and established dominion over a strip of stony coastlands fifty leagues long and ten leagues wide.​

We also know that on top of the 3 unknown wiped out houses the Wades and the Shells were conquered by the Martell, and most likely wiped out too.​

Until the coming of Nymeria, no Dornishman would ever have counted them amongst the great powers of the country. Indeed, though surrounded by kings on every side, the Martells themselves never presumed to claim that title, and at certain points in their history, they willingly bent the knees to the Jordayne kings of the Tor, the pious Allyrions of Godsgrace, the many petty kings of the Greenblood, and the mighty Yronwoods of Yronwood.​

We also know that the Martells at some point were under the rule of some of these First Men houses, which could mean that some are still alive as minor knights, as the Andal conquest does not wiped them out (the Martells can't be under them at any point if they were wiped out at the time of the Andal conquest).

With all this in mind I'd say perhaps house Holt was/is located near or around what today are Spottswood lands, as "holt" can mean a small wooded area or hill. You can do with that info what you see fitting, the possibilities are endless!

I know, this is a lot of text hahaha, but it is mostly me trying to explain myself, I'm still very happy for seeing both of you apply for this location with such enthusiasm and great plans!​

 

[Azulejo]

If I don't reply to this before Friday you can bury me at the Pit.

It's friday in Australia

Get the shovels ready!!

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

Get his ass

 

[7JG7]

Hey guys! First of all sorry for the long wait hahahaha, life sometimes gets on the way and I didn't want to reply to this with a poorly thought-out post, so I had to wait ti'll I had a good chunk of free time to dedicate to it. We've been talking a bit about the project for a while now, so I think it is safe to say that the general vision is something I'm happy with! This is a very nice app and it shows work and thought has been put into it! I will now give you both more specific FB to polish it. It may seem like a lot but you'll see most points are pretty minor changes, I just like to be very nitpicky, more so with my loved Dorne.

General plans
Overall really nice! I have little to say, mostly stuff that would be better to decide in site with proper scale in mind. Regarding the work flow you plan to have, rather than doing all of the terra at once, I think it is best to do it in stages, in case that isn't what was planned from the start. I think the structure of the lands of Spottswood allows for that nicely, as one can do 1 finger at a time. This is mostly to avoid big placeholder patches to take over the map for ages, and it is something we are trying to encourage more in general.

There is a river at your plans, though I would call it a stream. It should probably be dried up as we are at the late stages of summer and small streams and even decently sized rivers dry up in summer in Mediterranean ambients, like Spottswood is. There's a couple of dried up river beds you can take as a reference both in the main map and lost around on the test world. Jake has made a couple really nice tests if you want to check them. I'll leave here some inspo as well.

Making the river dried up may mean some changes in the way you plan the crops and irrigated areas within the main valley. I suggest rather than using a canal coming from the stream, which would be an unreliable source for water, you use qanats or groundwater to irrigate the crops. Qanats are widely used in The Tor, if you need an in-game reference. Also make sure the irrigation channels have an output! I'd say they can feed onto the river for the water discharge.

This all will be easier to plan in production. Btw I think it is worth mentioning that while irrigation is needed for certain crops like fruit trees and some vegetables, this area would be able to sustain dryland farming for stuff like wheat, olives or wineyards. Another thing regarding crops is the use of terraces! I think they can fit nicely here. Once again that is something that can be more easily planned once you start the project. I also leave here a irrigation ditch for reference (this is part of a system here in southern Spain that dates back from muslim times, so it fits perfectly!).
View attachment 18163

Terraforming
Overall good job with the tests and plans! As Aeks pointed out greenifying a little bit more the southern slopes of the fingers would be ideal, as they would be hit with the storms going north through the Stepstones. In general don't be afraid to greenify, all of eastern Dorne is meant to go under that process eventually. You have a buffer dune desert terra area planned, which makes sense as a temporary solution, but be aware that eventually the desert bordering your project will be gone (there is a small desert/dune patch between Sunspear and Ghost Hill/the Greenblood, but that would not affect this area). So feel free to extend the greenified area further west up to the dynmap border.

This means having more of the "dusty" terrain as well as potentially expanding the green areas of the valleys. Also, as I've mentioned before, Grey Gallows is a great example of a dry Mediterranean landscape, on top of looking at The Tor/Ghost Hill for reference. It's okay if you add some bushes sprinkled around on this terrain on top of the grass patches you already have: palmito, thyme, rosemary, oleander, lavander... Here is some reference pics for that landscape, it falls between what you labelled as "arable" and "dusty":
View attachment 18164View attachment 18166

You should remove most of the flowers at your green terra tests. Once again, we are at the end of summer and most flowers wouldn't be around. You can leave some flowering bushes like Oleander as they do flower in late summer, but most of the 1 block flowers should go. You can keep the reddish northern flowers you have used at the cliff tests, those add an interesting look. Also from an aesthetic POV I think having too many types of flowers looks odd, as there's a seemingly random combination of colours that doesn't really go together.

Regarding the tree schems, it seems like you are planning on using cypresses as part of the forests. Don't, they would be planted by humans. They can be part of gardens, farm edges... but not the forests, it looks a bit odd IMO. Respecting the sandbeggars, I saw you are thinking of trying alternative schems for them. I agree on that, as I think our sandbeggar schems look a bit dated. I'd say we can use this project as an excuse to make a new sandbeggar schem. Perhaps argan trees can be a good reference? We'll see, I'll try to give it a try, or yourself if you want to. Having said that, I leave here some Mediterranean pine forests as reference for the forested terra: 1, 2.

The town
Looks like you are going to use the façades of the houses at the town as part of the wall, right? If so that is a great idea, and fits really nicely! The town looks significantly smaller than The Tor's, so I'd say don't make the walls too big, thick or prominent, more like something between Tor's town and /warp torhamlet3. Also make sure to warp the wall around the whole town, right now the sea side is open.

Another suggestion I have regarding the town is to have a beach port instead of some docks. In general we don't use these enough and they would be the most common type of port. Basically just a beach were ships will dock, right by the walls of the town.

Something else that might be worth considering is its style. While it is nice overall and does follow the path layed down by The Tor, I think given its location it is worth trying something different, more influenced by andalusi/magrebi housing and planning. Here I have some references for layout and general shape. I think this is best to try and tackle while we are all online, so make sure to hit me up on disc and we can set a time to try and test it a little. As of right now I have most mornings free, so that is an option we can take.
View attachment 18168View attachment 18169

The castle
If any changes are done do not make it any bigger, house Santagar is a landed kight and as of right now the size of the castle is already pushing what we consider appropiate for it.

I'd remove most if not all of the pebble layers that you have put at the roofs of the castle, I think it makes it look busy and also if those areas are on use they would be somewhat cleaned. You can have some small piles of pebbles at corners ocassionally, if you so desire. I assume you are doing it to cover the odd changes of material at the ceiling below, I think it might be worth to add a block in height to house the floor material for the roofs rather than covering with pebbles.

This tower right here has a pretty odd shape, I'd say you should rework it and make it have a regular shape (rectangle, square... it can be diagonal ofc, but a regular polygon). For the same reason this tile roof here should be reworked, perhaps it is just easier to make it a flat roof.
View attachment 18170View attachment 18171

I think you need to make your main tower more prominent, as well as have it be a single body instead of a series of towers glued together at different levels. Visual hierarchy helps a lot when making castles, so IMO it is appropiate to give a bit more promenance to the main keep. You know I was more fond of the version of the current castle with a big square tower, you don't have to go back to that but something on that line might be it.

Still not sold on the onion dome turrets, I would not make them onion domes, and perhaps remove one of them so the castle courtyard is a bit less busy. I'd would remove the salt pans too. They can be elswhere in the project but beneath the castle I think makes it look like there's too many ideas in one spot. Also remove the palms at the cliffs, they won't grow there and also they are really thin for their size. Palm trunks are thin but not that thin. I'd say a fence post can be warped with both your hands but a palm tree trunk of that size wouldn't. Here is some cliff vegetation in case you need references.

Canon
Don't worry, you didn't miss anything, these are just suggestions I make based on what we know for the area. Given the fact that fishing villages were prominent in eastern Dorne at the early stages of the First Men colonization, it could be interesting to have fishing and fishing-related stuff be prominent in Spottswood. You have a couple fishing hamlets, but what about tuna fishing with almadrabas? Or perhaps escabeche making? You have all the ingredients in the area for it, it would be I think a great addition!

Also, as you may know there is a couple (a dozen or so) canon First Men houses that lived in the Greenblood and eastern Dorne before the arrival of the Andals. Some of those were wiped out by them, but not all, so it could be interesting if one of the few we know was/is located somewhere in this project, either alive as a landed knight or as the remains of their old fortifications/castle. Here is the canon I'm referencing:

As you see we know three of these were wiped out at one point, but we don't know which ones, so we can use that information at our will. It is also worth metioning how these houses have names tied to the location they come from, that hint how it could look.

We also know that on top of the 3 unknown wiped out houses the Wades and the Shells were conquered by the Martell, and most likely wiped out too.

We also know that the Martells at some point were under the rule of some of these First Men houses, which could mean that some are still alive as minor knights, as the Andal conquest does not wiped them out (the Martells can't be under them at any point if they were wiped out at the time of the Andal conquest).

With all this in mind I'd say perhaps house Holt was/is located near or around what today are Spottswood lands, as "holt" can mean a small wooded area or hill. You can do with that info what you see fitting, the possibilities are endless!

I know, this is a lot of text hahaha, but it is mostly me trying to explain myself, I'm still very happy for seeing both of you apply for this location with such enthusiasm and great plans!​

Hey! I've started a new job this week so have only really been able to fully digest the feedback and respond now! In terms of fully addressing and updating the app accordingly, I reckon a new update will be provided hopefully within the next two weeks. But for now, I shall try to respond to your points as best I can

General Plans - the recommended sequencing for building Spottswood is definitely worth adopting and I think it will be good to focus on each valley in turn so that the region is not left with the scars of major redevelopment and so each valley is given enough focus when it comes to detail.

The River - I must admit in the initial planning of Spottswood I had completely overlooked the seasonal timeline of our server. Being at the height of summer, a dried-up river is the most sensible and realistic choice and KD and I will be working to provide some clear plans for it.

Irrigation - I agree with the use of qanats and groundwater for the crops and we're very excited to explore the terraced idea when it comes to planning later in the game!

Terraforming - following the point of it being summer, we will move to remove flowers from our grass tests and update them accordingly to show natural dehydration. Thanks for the recommendations of the different herbs/grasses we can use! In terms of tree types, we had included cypresses in our tests knowing they are only really planted by people. Don't worry! They were never intended to be included within the forest. We were only going to plant them as part of gardens and farm edges as seen at GH. We're also excited to reclaim more of the dessert and will indeed look to "greenify" and blend the lands of Spottswood up to its boundary. We love the idea of using Spottswood as the initiator to design a new sandbeggar scheme - I will open my plot to any builder who is interested in helping with this as I know there are a lot of really talented tree builders on this server! Please let me know if you're keen to help and so I can /trust you.

The Town - we'll work to plan that the seaside length of the town is protected by a wall/facade and that all protective walls match the shape criteria in comparison with the Tor and other mentioned locations. We are very happy to explore the idea of turning the dock into a beach port and would love to discuss this further to really develop the idea and see how it can work and also some other in-game examples! In terms of the plotting of the town, we are happy to also explore the Andalusi/Magrebi techniques and would love to discuss this further too.

The Castle - in terms of the size, any adjustments will aim to not increase the presence of the fortress. We're happy to remove the pebble design and rework the flat roofs' texture to ensure that don't appear too busy but are nonetheless properly weathered in the South-Eastern Dornish exposure. Moreover, we are more than happy to tweak the shapes of the mentioned tower and slated roof to make it seem more natural and cohesive! Regarding the main keep of the castle, we agree that the need for a single-body structure will help the castle seem better planned and trafficked overall. Could you perhaps (and we welcome others who would like to add any thoughts also to do so) expand on what you mean with the tower's prominence and how you would imagine its shaping? Palms will be removed accordingly, as will the salt pans. In terms of the onion dooms, we know they draw a marmite opinion. We would choose to keep them as we believe they suit Dorne and the character of our build. However, with the main keep being reworked, we expect it may lose its onion doom and are nevertheless still open to discussions concerning the remaining two.

The Canon - fishing is definitely a big part of Spottswood's economy and we're very interested in the almadraba process - it would be good to practice building this in-game for sure. What's more, we'll be sure to include further fishing hamlets where appropriate. In terms of the wiped out/conquered Houses, we're very keen to show signs of their existence. We think we could have signs of a ruinous keep somewhere within the Central Valley. House Holt could perhaps have their seat where the planned southern holdfast was intended within the Spottswood Valley? Moreover, the holdfast located in the Ghostly Valley could perhaps play home to one of the mentioned first-men Houses that ruled over Martell and forced into submission under the Sanatagar's when they were awarded/tasked with protecting the Spotswood lands from Sunspeare.

I think I've addressed all your points but please let me know if there is anything I have failed to mention or respond to! KD and I would really like to thank you for the feedback as it is extremely helpful for us to make Spottswood work and blend within the wider region. We shall start to edit our builds and update our plans within the next week or so! We look forward to discussions concerning the above points too and would really welcome any more thoughts and ideas during this time!

 

[Azulejo]

Hey guys! I briefly talked in-game with 7 so some things we already went over there, but I will reiterate some of my points here so it is easier for all.​

• Regarding the terraforming, some of the suggestions I've made are already schems. With that what I wanted to emphasize is that you shouldn't shy away from having some bushes at the drier ambients, as that is fitting and realistic for the area.​

• Regarding the castle, I've saw the work on removing the pebbles and I'm happy with the outcome. As for the main keep, the layout I've seen seems right on the path of what I wanted for it. In case it is needed here I leave a (rough) drawing. But basically I would like to see a single tower rather than several combined. With "prominence" I meant something mostly aesthetic, I think castles need a focal point, something that clearly is the main part, so giving more prominance (relevance, height, body) to the main keep I think would help, in this case.​

• Regarding the canon, love the idea of having the former house Holt's seat being somehow reused or (more likely) used as a foundation of a holdfast in the Spottswood valley. And surely given that canon doesn't specify how many First Men houses were there at Eastern Dorne there could be remains of other at the Ghost Valley. It is important to note these are very ancient seats of power, so we should probably look at pre-medieval or even pre-roman stuff for reference. Also, just to be clear, the First Men houses that at one point ruled over the Martell could be any of the mentioned or others, so even house Holt could've been the one. They aren't a separate set of houses as the ones mentioned as being part of the Greenblood/Eastern coast elective kingdom.​

As for the rest of the points, I think we can go through it in-game easily, as it is mostly just brainstorming and testing that needs to be done. I said it before, but I'm very happy with the attitude of both of you and the overall work. Keep it up!​

 

[AerioOndos]

Now that I can see part of the castle test in Azul's pic above, the wave-cut platforms visible on the right hand side should all face the same direction and run parallel to each other, not start turning like a starburst the further around the point they go. If there is variation, it should be very minor, not a 45+ degree change in angle.

 

[otty]

I agree with Azul heavily on the terra aspects of this project so far .




I marked in pink circles what I think should be referred to as foothills or dusty hills I believe you referred to them. These are pretty soft minerals in the region so try recessing them all into the center a bit more. My main issue is the one on the right, I'm just not sure how it'd erode like as a softer material. A valley in a finger isn't really feasible. As these are carved primarily by rainfall in the ocean — so, you would need a river to create a valley and ocean would need to be adjacent for it to carve (but the ocean isn't in the valley). So i'd make it look more like the others or consider a way to include a river or possibly signs of an old one. If you do choose to keep these ranges change the material to look unique/different from the rest to indicate why they still exist.

In regards to the stonework you have :

I'm not a fan of the plants sitting on top of rock and the gradient itself. The gradient you have is not natural so I'd recommend viewing the form more holistically, rather than in blocks. The alt block under the westerlands on every horizontal section isn't really how'd it would happen in real life. Instead look at the mass of rock and gradient that a bit. Even then, rocks don't really have gradients and instead have striations from different sources of sediment or pockets of it. I don't think the gradient is bad but I would consider a new approach to it.

Dorne also doesn't really use Westerlands stone, I would be cautious introducing it as I personally don't think it blends out too well.

The plants on top of rocks aren't very common around the server as plants often need a source of soil or dirt to grow along. And that implies a lot of non-represented dirt is there. So I personally aim for something - moss, bush, dirt,etc -to be under a majority of plants to give the idea of this. But if you do that, your cliffs will be a lot more messy. In general, I would aim to cut back on this or not have it at all as I don't think it's necessary and is more visual clutter than needed. Have a few small pockets of it and it'll go a long way.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

To push back on one point we do use westerlands terrainset in Dorne in Wyl, The Tor and Ghost Hill.

And to push back on another point there is another *ahem* more fantastical reason why the arm of dorne is shaped the way it is than just rain.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Breaking

And as previously stated by Azulejo this is Dorne at the height of summer, most rivers are seasonal and would not be present year round.

 

[otty]

To push back on one point we do use westerlands terrainset in Dorne in Wyl, The Tor and Ghost Hill.

And to push back on another point there is another *ahem* more fantastical reason why the arm of dorne is shaped the way it is than just rain.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Breaking

And as previously stated by Azulejo this is Dorne at the height of summer, most rivers are seasonal and would not be present year round.

I was just suggesting to bring them inward a bit for erosions sake over the many, many thousands years as this is (presumably) a softer stone. It also is debated whether or not the hammer of water was immediate or over centuries, which if the latter was the case, would be a slightly more natural appearing process. Furthermore, the inner valley on the second finger to the right is still odd even if the broke off as it wouldn't break off that way. That's why I was suggesting a river or a notably even referenced to "possibly [show] signs of an old one" if they wanted to justify it.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

Is there any concrete evidence one way or another that its soft stone or is this just assumed conjecture?

 

[AerioOndos]

Conjecture I think, but considering its the famously sandy part of Westeros we use textures based on sandstone and sedimentary rocks for Dorne, because of course they're softer and more easily break down into sand (I know I'm being captain obvious here).
The main issue with the peninsula isn't stone types or how the arm was broken/would break, its that the valley seems to run opposite to the logical path-of-least-resistance for water in the thousands of years since.
A gorge like that wouldn't stay like that unless there was considerable glacial uplift, which is definitely not the case so what should probably happen is that there's a 'pass' part way through that valley which splits it into a valley flowing west to the town and one east to the sea. Probably a little north of the final yellow dot. If the NW ridgeline is taller than the SE ridge, you're still getting a good amount of flow into it.
Plus, on the highpoints should be inland bit, I do agree, to a point. This is where stone hardness gets relevant. Imo the end of that right-most point looks like its stuck on sideways. Different to both the direction of the other fingers and islands and the way storms would erode and transport material (NW to towards Cape Wrath). It should face the other way if all the rock was the same, but it doesn't. If during the Breaking or the thousands of years since something happened geologically that twisted, collapsed or otherwise changed the tip of that peninsula, tilted it sideways etc, it could mean that a potential peak that was at a central point of the peak was shifted and/or tipped on its side, allowing a gulley to form in the exposed softer striations.
Correct me if my I'm going wrong with my understanding of geomorphology. I'm mostly trying to come up with a way to keep and add cool detail to the plan/map.

 

[Azulejo]

Conjecture I think, but considering its the famously sandy part of Westeros we use textures based on sandstone and sedimentary rocks for Dorne, because of course they're softer and more easily break down into sand (I know I'm being captain obvious here).​

I'm being nitpicky but that being true doesn't necessarily mean all of Dorne should have the same type of stone, like this area with a more jagged coastline.

Slightly related to this, I understand our terrainsets are modeled after different types of stones either sendimentary, metamorphic or igneous, and mixing them sometimes looks to odd combinations geologically speaking, but I still think this is, generally, a minor issue that can be overlooked if the overall picture is a good combination. With this I mean that I don't think there's a problem in using Westerlands terrainset in Dorne. In fact I think areas of Dorne should eventually use Westerlands terrainset as their main terra block, in order to have represented in the region not only the canon red land (as well as our currently dominant golden tones) but also the canon pale sands and areas. But this is a topic that gets out of the main point of this discussion. I understand that Otty's comment regarding the use of Westerlands TS comes mostly from not loving the mix used at the terra tests. But it is true that the region already uses Westerlands TS as secondary terra blocks, and rather than limiting its use I think we should consider expanding it. A region where grass isn't the main terra cover shouldn't be limited to using a couple terrainsets. Deserts and drylands can be very colourful and have countless variations in their looks, it would be a shame not to explore that range.

Regarding the fingertip valleys I understand the oddity of their looks. An alternative, tying with suggestions I've made earlier, could be to have the southern side slope gently while the north side is more jagged and vertical, and have terraces so the southern side is still usable as arable land. Serra Gelada in Benidorm is a good reference for what I'm trying to explain (just imagine it being cutt off from the mainland). Another possibility is having these fingers flattened and look closer to this 360 Google Maps view. Not super flat though as canonically the area has hills.​

Spoiler: Serra Gelada

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Spoiler: Examples of coastal cliff terraces

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Also in case it is needed to clarify I'm not arguing against the addition of rivers or streams, just the fact that as of now they would be dry. But just like any dry or even desert-y ambient their marks on the land would still be there even if the waterstream itself isn't.​

 

[otty]

Yes to Aeks point and to Azul's.

My main concern was with that valley.
In regards to the hardness of softness of stone I'm with Azul. I don't necessarily believe that it's one stone across Dorne ,hence why I recommended to represent a different type of stone from the rest of Dorne there to indicate a difference to showcase why these rocks maintain their structure.

 

[Jakethesnake8_8]

Putting my two cents in here! An alternate explanation for the fingers having valleys and all that fun stuff could just be down to the geology. The valley could stay if we accept that there is folding of rock layers in the fingers.
The fingers themselves could be anticlines, and the valleys between synclines. The softer layers of rock on the surface would get washed down into the synclines leaving behind the linear shape of the fingers.

That being said, it’s the sort of thing that wouldn’t be immediately obvious to the passerby and unless you knew about this stuff you would be confused by it. This may all just be moot. Who knows, but do with this information what you will!

App is looking lovely