A Stormlands Overhaul

AerioOndos

Donkey Lord
Of course! Any similarity to the two would probably just be in terms of stone palettes when they do occur, rather than any close similarity. And especially the Tor houses would be unusable for a cape wrath style due to their flat rooves.

On the point about hills around Broad Arch, I'd say that while that can be the case, there needs to be a tall range extending close to the sea at Horpe so that the Red March is in a rainshadow and is protected from the storms and heavy rainfall of Cape Wrath, Shipbreaker Bay and the Rainwood.
 

Nikas Kunitz

Herald
Of course! Any similarity to the two would probably just be in terms of stone palettes when they do occur, rather than any close similarity. And especially the Tor houses would be unusable for a cape wrath style due to their flat rooves.

On the point about hills around Broad Arch, I'd say that while that can be the case, there needs to be a tall range extending close to the sea at Horpe so that the Red March is in a rainshadow and is protected from the storms and heavy rainfall of Cape Wrath, Shipbreaker Bay and the Rainwood.
You got your point on the rainshadowing. though in fact there must be some evident region in the Narrow sea, where waters from northern and southern currents are meeting to from the storms (that's one of explanations). As well as a wind rose, all to determine where exactly storms are forming and in what driection they are blowing. Because "actual" Stomlands are quite bigger than model of them on our server, it is possible that, with some exact localisation of them, storms generally don't reach Red Watch, being dispersed over Cape Wrath. Is there any canonical information on where exactly storms are forming in the Narrow sea?
 

Nikas Kunitz

Herald
POST №2. About the famous storms, where are they raging mostly and why they are forming.
See this as continuation of my first suggestions post.
Well, after some thought, I made this very rough map of why Stormlands are stormy lands. As I have only limited knowledge in science of climate, this map is far from perfect, I guess. Nevertheless, I tried to make this map canon-fitting, trying to explain various aspects of Stormlands. In "The World of Ice and Fire" there is a passage, quite logical in itself, but strange in appliance to "actual" Westeros geography, saying that storms are originating in Summer sea. That is strange because the proposed storms are likely to strike Dorne far more often than Stormlands and also that would mean a far more green Dorne. Instead, I propose different explanation of the storms for which Stormlands are famous, using other canon passage, stating that Narrow sea can be very stormy, especially during autumns and winters. As such I propose this explanation of storms' formation.
The Narrow sea is the place, where warm water and wind currents from Summer sea are meeting with cool water and wind currents from Shivering sea. Because the northern cool current is somewhat stronger than southern warm current, the exact location of this meeting is south-central part of the Narrow sea, particularly, southward of Tarth, near the very tip of Cape Wrath, i.e. the cape Wrath. There, when these currents collide, they start messing up, producing something like cyclones. Moreover, the warm current is largely diverted to Shipbreaker bay, where it again meets with the cool current. As such, there are two main localities, where storms are created: one in the Narrow sea, right next to the cape Wrath, giving this cape its name; and the other in main water body of Shipbreaker bay (as storms require broad water surfaces without obstacles to form). As northern cool current is generally stronger (maybe it is realistic, that cold air/water masses can overcome warm ones), the storms are generally go in southern, western and northwestern directions (as cyclone twirls), bombarding mainly the tip and northern coast of Cape Wrath (across which storms are going inland, fading) and THE Stormlands around Storm's End, particularly between the Durran's Point and Swygert. Over the lesser part of Shipbreaker bay (around Griffen's Roost) storms are less formidable, because there is less water surface. Nevertheless, there is also stormy, due to storms from bigger part of the bay going here, gradually fading. This is why I suggest having a small port town north of the Griffen's Roost, at the place of current fishing village, because it is the safest bight and quite strategically good location. (And could be a great former economic powerbase of previously rich Conningtons, who even dared to oppose Baratheons. For more global information of this town, see my first post in this thread). This town isn't a major port and all the ships go here only during summers, when Shipbreaker bay is most passable. So, there are only few merchant ships and no military fleet is stationed here.
As such, main ports of the Stormlands are located outside of Shipbreaker bay, on the islands of Estermont and Tarth (which is mostly surrounded by stable northern cool currents, with clear sapphire waters, and protected from storms by its mountains), on the southern coast of Cape Wrath (on Dornish sea, which is warm and quite calm. This is additional reason why southern coast of CW is much more populated than stormy northern one), perhaps with few small harbors north of Parchements (the main port of the Northern Stormlands on Narrow sea was Sweetport, before it was transfered to Crownlands).
The rough map can help understand what I mean. The red arrows are southern warm air/water current from Summer sea, the blue arrows are northern cool current from Shivering sea. The purple oulines indicate two main localities where storms are formed, while the purple arrows indicate main directions of the storms. The green circle indicates the port town described above (see the map from previous post for more information, like road connections).
 

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EStoop

Steward of Oldtown, Knight of Fairmarket
I really wish GRRM had switched them IRL, it makes more sense to have the martial Stormlands next to the Iron Islands and the rich and wealthy Lannisters next to the Free Cities
To be fair to George, the Westerlands aren't wealthy because they trade a lot, they are wealthy because they quite literally pull wealth out of the ground. Their trade by sea is likely more focussed on the south of the realm than it is towards the north.

The Stormlands probably have a martial tradition because the Durrendon kings seem to have been extremely expansionist before Aegon's Conquest. It's also possible they grew to be militaristic due to slave raids from the Free Cities. Shipbreaker Bay isn't interesting for trade due to the risks of sailing there in regards to the weather, as well as a lack of substantial trading hubs due to the militaristic nature of the region.
 

Nikas Kunitz

Herald
To be fair to George, the Westerlands aren't wealthy because they trade a lot, they are wealthy because they quite literally pull wealth out of the ground. Their trade by sea is likely more focussed on the south of the realm than it is towards the north.

The Stormlands probably have a martial tradition because the Durrendon kings seem to have been extremely expansionist before Aegon's Conquest. It's also possible they grew to be militaristic due to slave raids from the Free Cities. Shipbreaker Bay isn't interesting for trade due to the risks of sailing there in regards to the weather, as well as a lack of substantial trading hubs due to the militaristic nature of the region.
It is so nice that not only I is thinking that Stormlands could be switched with Westerlands. Besides what was written above, Stormlands could be more fitting for western, oceanic coast both because oceans are much more inclined to have fierce storms, as well as such location, far from Essos and trade, fits much better for Stormlands as backward wild country. While for Westerlands my thought is that mere gold can't be foundation of economic prosperity, because mining large amounts of gold will lead mostly to inflation and economical problems, while if Westerlands were located in Stormlands place, gold mines would be really great as additional boost for busy and already profitable trade with Essos. Not to mention how much more better the styles would fit switched locations.
 

Nikas Kunitz

Herald
Regardless, we deal with the hand GRRM has dealt us. :( alrighty.

Also, the point on trade isn't entirely true. Tarth and the southern coast of cape wrath probably trade with the free cities, and Weeping Town isn't the only coastal port there, its just the largest
Well, we can't switch Stormlands and Westerlands, of course.
Of course there is a trade going. I explicitly wrote the same locations in my post about weather and storms above. Everything to support canon as it is.
 
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Nikas Kunitz

Herald
POST №3 About the town on upper Wendwater, the river, Kingswood and some town names.
As I mentioned in my first post, I propose having a small town on upper Wendwater, on the side of Stormlands, where Kingsroad crosses the river, because town here feels logical. I have some more thoughts for this suggested town.
First of all, it is quite a young town in history of Westeros. It grew only in last 300 years, after the Conquest and establishment of the Targaryen dynasty. Before that, the forest, today known as Kingswood, was much bigger, densely covering Wendwater banks and Northern Stormlands. Only a few settlements were scattered here. Stormlanders hadn't colonised the region, because, in my opinion, the old "Kingswood" was quite an unpleasant land for cultivation. In addition to being a dense forest, I suggest that Kingswood should have some swamps as well, as the forest lies in a lowland. especially at the western bank of lower Wendwater. But most importantly, there was no trade routes encouraging people to settle here (in my opnion, the road from Bronzegate westwards, to the Reach, including southern offshot to the Marches, existed from old times, leaving old "Kingswood" aside). As such, old "Kingswood" served largely as a natural northern border of the Kingdom of the Storm, remaining largely a wild, unsettled area. (But its southern and eastern outskirts around Felwood, Haystack and Sweetport were already in process of slow-paced clearing and colonisation. Remember, that in most ancient days Kingswood and Rainwood were two edges of one giant forest, covering most of the Stormlands. So, the large-scale clearing and settlement started around southeastern part of Northern Stormlands and gradually expanded in the northern, western and (to lesser extent) southern directions, dividing the primeval forest into two: Kingswood and Rainwood, leaving only forested uplands and patches of forest between).
The whole situation changed drastically after the Conquest and, more concretically, after the establishment of King's Landing as new socio-economic centre of Westeros. KL from the start became a "magnet" for trade, and so, many new trade routes appeared. For Stormlands it largely meant the two: the Kingsroad was cleared through the Kingswood to directly connect KL and Stormlands; and Wendwater became a valuable river route to supply evergrowing population of KL with agricultural products from Northern Stormlands. This quickly sparkled the colonisation of the region (old "Kingswood" and Wendwater). However, this struggled with new legal realities. As the new border between Stormlands and Crownlands was established largely on Wendwater course, the old "Kingswood" was largely devided into two legally different parts. The bigger, Crownlands', part of the forest became the King's wood, the Royal property, and clearing and settlement were largely prohibited here. While the smaller part, on the other side of Wendwater, that remained in Stormlands, had no such laws prohibiting clearing and settlement. Collision between economic interests and legal realities led to colonisation of upper Wendwater, but only on Stormlands' side of the river. A not big town quickly grew on the place, where Kingsroad crossed Wendwater and bridge was built, serving as trading point, where goods were loaded on cargo boats for shipment to KL, as well as market on Stormlands' Kingsroad, closest to KL. On actual WC map, I suppose there can be a big wooden bridge and contrast between Crownlands' and Stormlands' banks of the Wendwater, with dense forest and the town with cultivated surroundings on the respective sides.
I have several naming ideas for this town, as well for some other towns in Stormlands. For the town on the upper Wendwater I propose following name suggestions: 1. Oryston (or Orysbridge) in honour of the first Baratheon to rule Stormlands; 2. [Targaryenname]'s Bridge (or Town), renamed to Robertsbridge (or Robertstown) after the end of Targaryen rule (and is named so currently); 3. Just Kingsbridge, as it stands on Kingsroad. All the names are connected to the towns location on the very border of Crownlands and Stormlands and indicate complex relations between Targaryens and Baratheons.
For the inland town in Storm's End lands, the biggest town in Northern Stormlands I propose following names: 1. Durranton (nuff said); 2. Durrangard; 3. Stormsgard/Stormgard. The ending -gard is largely to indicate some olden and Eastern European (ending -grad/grod would be too much explicit Slavic, while -gard is more universal Germano-Slavic) character of Stormlands, as well as etymologically deriving from meaning of "guarded from storms", as the town is built away from the coast specifically to be safe from the storms ravaging the coastland.
For the town with small port near Griffen's Roost that I proposed I suggest just name it Connington, named after the lords of Griffen's Roost (or vice versa, the house is named after the town). The town remains named Connington despite it isn't controlled by Conningtons anymore.
I personally prefer Robertsbridge, Stormsgard/Stormgard and Connington.
See the map in the first post for towns location,
 
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Azulejo

Spellsinger
I love the -gard ending and what it exudes, but I'm more inclined to Durrangard, Stormgard feels a bit too easy. Also I agree with all 3 towns: the river crossing town, the inland main town and the small one in Shipbreaker bay. Just to note a ford or a pontoon bridge would be alternatives if somehow the wood bridge seems excesive, but I like all.​
 

_Simbaa

Printmaker
. A not big town quickly grew on the place, where Kingsroad crossed Wendwater and bridge was built, serving as trading point, where goods were loaded on cargo boats for shipment to KL, as well as market on Stormlands' Kingsroad, closest to KL. On actual WC map, I suppose there can be a big wooden bridge and contrast between Crownlands' and Stormlands' banks of the Wendwater
Just FYI there is already a large stone bridge near the Mouth of Wendwater. which could prove to be an issue for your water trade as cargoboats for KL would not be able to fit past it. Furthermore it is supposed to be the canon bridge where the 4th Blackfyre rebellion was crushed. This could be an issue for your plans of having another large bridge & town further up Wendwater.

As the original project leader of House Wendwater I would like to propose a possible solution if required:
- given the age and quality of Wendwater I am not opposed of redoing the project further upstream - as the proposed town, as this would enable unobstructed river-trade & keep the bridge count on Wendwater to one, and it would add a cohesion between Masseys Hook and Stormlands.
-_Simbaa
 
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DutchGuard

Shadowbinder
Pronouns
he/him
Just FYI there is already a large stone bridge near the Mouth of Wendwater. which could prove to be an issue for your water trade as cargoboats for KL would not be able to fit past it. Furthermore it is supposed to be the canon bridge where the 4th Blackfyre rebellion was crushed. This could be an issue for your plans of having another large bridge & town further up Wendwater.

As the original project leader of House Wendwater I would like to propose a solution:
- given the age and quality of Wendwater I am not opposed of redoing the project further upstream - as the proposed town, as this would enable unobstructed river-trade & keep the bridge count on Wendwater to one, and it would add a cohesion between Masseys Hook and Stormlands.
-_Simbaa
I would be against going any further upstream as you would be encroaching on the Kingswood. Ideally the boundaries would stay as they are.
 
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Nikas Kunitz

Herald
Just FYI there is already a large stone bridge near the Mouth of Wendwater. which could prove to be an issue for your water trade as cargoboats for KL would not be able to fit past it. Furthermore it is supposed to be the canon bridge where the 4th Blackfyre rebellion was crushed. This could be an issue for your plans of having another large bridge & town further up Wendwater.

As the original project leader of House Wendwater I would like to propose a solution:
- given the age and quality of Wendwater I am not opposed of redoing the project further upstream - as the proposed town, as this would enable unobstructed river-trade & keep the bridge count on Wendwater to one, and it would add a cohesion between Masseys Hook and Stormlands.
-_Simbaa
As the house Wendwater is part of the Crownlands I think it should remain where it is, the Robertsbridge town I proposed is an unrelated settlement in Stormlands side of upper Wendwater. Yeah, the bridge on lower Wendwater actually obstructs passage and, most importantly, is canonically important (the battle at Wendwater bridge happened explicitly in lands of Wendwaters, in Crownlands), but I guess we can find a solution if we want: as I suggested, goods are sailed on Wendwater not by any large ships, but by low cargoboats, that can actually go under the bridge, if the arch is broad enough.
We can consider relocating lands of Wendwaters upstreams, to the Kingsroad crossing, but this would shift town here to the Crownlands side, what is quite unwanted by the reasons I wrote in the last post (Kingswood is forbidden for clearing and settlement, so the town rose on Stormlands side).
On the other hand, there can be small port in the mouth of Wendwater, in Wendwaters lands, where goods can be transferred from cargoboats to larger vessels to go to KL. Also, current Wendwater castle and lands are quite good, so I think they should not be redone in such complete way.
P.S. Checked the Wendwater bridge - I guess it is already quite passable for cargoboats, the archs are broad and high enough, especially the central one.
 
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Nikas Kunitz

Herald
I would be against going any further upstream as you would be encroaching on the Kingswood. Ideally the boundaries would stay as they are.
Yes, I agree, the house of Wendwater should stay where it is, what I want is cohesion of all Wendwater river course.
P.S. what do you think of the Stormlands town on upper Wendwater I suggested? And of all ideas generally?
 

DutchGuard

Shadowbinder
Pronouns
he/him
I replied in haste to Sim, and I apologize for that. I've just read through your Wendwater ideas and I am afraid to say I am totally against them. The Kingswood is quite literally the "King's wood", a private area of forest for exclusive use by the nobility. There are canonically bands of outlaws living in the area, but I would be really against any permanent settlements, unless they were associated with royal forestry or hunting.

I really like your creative ideas, but I feel very strongly that the Kingswood should be basically off limits for the foreseeable future, until we can come up with a coherent master plan for the Kingswood. To be clear, the area I am talking about is highlighted in pink below, with the black line representing my best guess for the regional border.

1637104083093.png
 

Nikas Kunitz

Herald
I replied in haste to Sim, and I apologize for that. I've just read through your Wendwater ideas and I am afraid to say I am totally against them. The Kingswood is quite literally the King's wood, a private area of forest for exclusive use by the nobility. There are canonically bands of outlaws living in the area, but I would be really against any permanent settlements, unless they were associated with royal forestry or hunting.

I really like your creative ideas, but I feel very strongly that the Kingswood should be basically off limits for the foreseeable future. To be clear, the area I am talking about is outlined in pink below, with the black line representing my best guess for the regional border.

View attachment 11497
Well, isn't the Kingswood itself, as legal Royal property, fully in Crownlands? In the third post I wrote quite fully why I think there should be a town here, not in the King's wood, but on the Stormlands side of the upper Wendwater, as the river is the border between Stormlands and Crownlands (and Kingswood, as such).
Anyway, thank you for your attention! :)