Redo appeal harvest hall

[Jeffjunior77]

Hey,
I am appealing for harvest hall to be exempted from the No-Redo Rule under clause 1(c) - Abandoned Build Clause.

Harvest hall is a unfinished project rn. i would pick it up and start from zero again.
Since the stormlands get a overhaul the current castle and houses don’t fit anymore in the stormlands. Also a newer and fresher style would Fit projects like darkdell and wyl.
I also talked to Iwan who is fine with it !

Jeff

 

[EStoop]

Is the current, afaik almost finished, portion of Harvest Hall by Iwan entirely unsalvageble? The area consistst of barely a fifth of the total area of the Selmy project so it seems to me there would be plenty of space to work around it after giving it an update to fit the regional style, although I have to admit it would be inconvenient. It's not unheard of to lift parts of a project up in order to terraform and plop them down again later, or to move them to some place else.

Harvest Hall has been a long running project and I think there is merit in trying to salvage this; the quality is quite good as I remember it (I haven't checked ingame) and if I remember correctly the sawmill has been the example for watermills on the server for a long time. The castle isn't outrageously large and could feasibly converted into a (large) holdfast.

On another matter, and I'm sorry to bring this up in this appeal, the Stormlands Overhaul has been cited a few times now to justify a seemingly coördinated number of redo's in the Stormlands, but I don't think any of its contents have ever been actually published. What is the plan? The lack of communication regarding this while at the same time citing it to explain a number of redo's is something I find extremely concerning for the following reasons:

• As far as I know, there has been an established style in the Stormlands for years now, and as bad as it is, it's something we cannot, in my opinion, change without getting serverwide feedback and discourse on the subject.
• The lack of information makes the Stormlands appear shielded from builders who are not part of the in-crowd working on this Stormlands Overhaul. I'm fairly certain this is not the intention at all, but because this information is not widely available it provides an extra obstacle to start a project in the Stormlands and it makes it appear that projects in the Stormlands are, to some extend, already reserved for this group of builders.
• The lack of information also make it seem like there is no greater plan at all (yet), and we're just (re)doing Stormlands projects ad hoc under the pretence of a coördinated overhaul. I'm concerned we're not actually solving the issues cited for this overhaul if there is not a solid plan to work from. I understand it's exciting to overhaul this region but we really should not be doing it as long as there is no finished and agreed upon plan.

 

[Jeffjunior77]

Hey Stoop!

I understand your points. But harvest hall is not almost finished !
There are some houses with some fields yeah but just in in the northern eastern boarder. Also there is a big forest north east wich should not be there.
The castle and the houses are very German influenced wich should get a redo. Also the castle plattete is way to dark for the marches. The starkes that comes from wyl should flow into blackhaven and the mountains should not be cuttet by any stream. I added some pictures of some plans. Also the stormlands overhaul is just a dc channel where ppl discuss their plans if they apply or if they have a stormland project. It’s based on kors overhaul.
It would be more work to make the castle fit the area. It’s easier to start from 0 actually.
The mountains are not even close to be done. The hills are also not even close to be done. I don’t see any points against a redo.


Jeff

 

[EStoop]

The castle and the houses are very German influenced wich should get a redo. Also the castle plattete is way to dark for the marches. [...] It would be more work to make the castle fit the area. It’s easier to start from 0 actually.

I understand it's easier, but I still think this portion of the project can be conserved and/or updated to fit whichever style ends up being used in this area. I also want to remind you that this project was the style of this region for years, as well as its palette.

Also the stormlands overhaul is just a dc channel where ppl discuss their plans if they apply or if they have a stormland project. It’s based on kors overhaul.

Honestly, I'm shocked. I was fully under the impression there were actual thoroughly thought out plans for the Stormlands similar to the Oldtown Document. The way the Stormlands Overhaul is referred to seems to imply as much in any case.

Kor's Stormlands Overhaul has been the basis of an approved redo appeal he made for Bronzegate, Wensington and Swygert, and an update proposal for Haystack Hall. However, it has never been worked out or presented as part of an actual project application and has, so far, been limited to a conceptual "big Mega-document, with everything we need to know in order to give this place the love it deserves.", of which the contents would be:

"Along with the the canon compilation I'll be compiling a proposal of ideas on how to match the canon description with real-life inspiration from a variety of areas that fit the different geographical descriptions of the Stormlands. Everything from the placement of Houses, to the rock-types from Massey's Hook to the Dornish Marches, to the vegetation of the Rainwood and the highlands of the Red Mountains, and the histories and tales that has shaped the landscape will be looked at, and everything in-between, while also considering what might be worth keeping, updating or completely redoing.
I'll also be proposing a few ideas and plans for how we could effectively carry out such an ambitious plan, so that we don't just turn the entire place into a big red sand-desert right away."

Again, we never got this. There has been some discussion and shared ideas in the thread Kor made to announce his intention to make such a document, but no actual document has yet been released. Referring to this non-existing conceptual idea of a Stormlands Overhaul as if it's a fully or partly worked out plan is a bit disingenuous, since it makes it appear there has been a consensus of what to do with the Stormlands wereas in reality we have only agreed a consensus should be made. How can you refer to a plan that simply does not exist?

I think we can all agree something has to happen with the Stormlands, but blindly redoing projects left and right without an actual plan for any of it apart from a discord channel that has been unknown for most of us untill just now is simply not the way to tackle this.

 

[Azulejo]

The Stormlands Overhaul started with the intention of compiling a document of that kind, but now it is more a shared space where builders with interest on the region or that are actively working on it/thinking about working on it can share their thoughts and ideas for the Stormlands so the end result is cohesive. Perhaps its name can be a little bit missleading, and perhaps not enough publicity about it has been made. As far as I know every builder that has shown interest on applying on the region has been offered the possibility of joining the server, unless of course said plans went under the radar. It is true however that I don't think that the fact that something has been discussed on it is enough justification to back up a redo, that should be held up by meeting the usual requierements. Maybe it is time to open the discussion about the region publicly once more.​

 

[Jeffjunior77]

so in the overhaul we discuss plans for stormlands regions yes. We work on maps and what style could fit where. But we don’t have the plan to redo the hole stormlands. We work ideas out and collect them and try to show them the different builders who want a stormland project.

To harvest hall:
Harvest hall is not very close to be done. Sure the castle still exist. But there is no main settlement yet. The mountains are in a very early step yet.
We have some houses and fields but no big big settlements yet.
The castle exist yeah but imo the style don’t fit the surrounding projects like darkdell and wyl. Why should I keep it if I can make a castle that fit the region better then the current German influenced castle.

Also I try no to start a project that is Abandoned to don’t redo a full project like I did at south cape wrath. I want to fill the missing spots in my fav of the seven kingdoms. Why should I keep stuff in this not even close to be finished build that I don’t support at all. Sure the castle layout is nice but that is not what i have in mind for the region.

I rlly will finish this project like I did with every other stuff I ever started here. Also the stormlands is something I rlly love in Westeros. To keep stuff that exist now would not Safe any time since a redo often goes faster then fix the hole style and update everything. I would understand ur points if harvest hall would be 80% done but not at the current proceed this project have.

Greetings
Jeff

 

[EStoop]

I don't think we're going to agree.

For clarity; I believe a part of Harvest Hall is close to be finished, which I have highlighted in red in the map below. I do not think, nor am I claiming, that the entire project is finished or close to being so. This area includes a 20+ house village, 2 holdfasts, half a dozen farms, a sawmill and a hamlet. All of this is only lacking 10 plotted houses, a handful of untextured roads and occasionally missing grass. For this reason, I think it's actually entirely reasonable to expect this small portion of project, which holds up fairly well in terms of plotting, decently in terms of style and decently in terms of palette (which has been used and is being used throughout the Dornish Marches), to be preserved. The alotted space to Harvest Hall is, even without the already almost finished part of the project (highlighted in green), twice as large as most projects on the server, including Hornhill, Blackhaven-Cole, Summerhall, Starpike, Redfort, Banefort and Sweetport Sound, to name a few.



Additionally, the last update on Wyl is from 2,5 years ago, there is no guarantee the project will not be dropped and entirely redone using the very reason you are stating to redo the parts that are finished at Harvest Hall. Darkdell is not bordering Harvest Hall at all; Leygood is between both projects. There is no border on the dynmap, but the Darkdell project does not include a redo of Leygood beyond lghf3.
While clashing with the WIP projects of Wyl and Darkdell, it more or less matches the styles of nearby Nightsong, Appleton, Ashford, Poddingfield, Gallowsgrey and Blackhaven, and to further away projects Cole, Lonmouth, Wagstaff, Grandview and even Summerhall to some extend.

I have no doubt you intend to see this project through, wether you're skilled enough or any other aspect of your appeal. All I'm asking for is not to throw away a decent part of a project on a technicality of it not being finished based on 10 houses, a handful of roads and a started but unfinished terraform of the mountain around the castle.

I don't think I've got any more to say on this matter, so I won't be involving myself in the discussion henceforth.

Kind regards,

Stoop

 

[Jeffjunior77]

thank you for ur feeback Stoop!
My main points for the redo are:

Terrain:
The wyl stream change direction into black haven. Btw endy worked also this year on wyl. There is progress on the castle and tera. When the stream change also the mountains change.
The Forrest what is located north east should not exist since canon tell us about the flat grasslands the marches have in this region.
The mountains are not done or could need a up to date redo.
The Hill in the middle of the vale looks very unnatural and need a lot of shaping yeah.
In the south west is basically nothing. No vegetation, settlements or any structures.

Architecture:
With the new darkdell and the current wyl style we have a new and nice up to date style wich should be included in the newer stormlands styles.
Rn we have a very German stormland style wich don’t fit the region.
Also the castle should not be a classic German castle imo.
Sure there are some houses and farms but sadly a update of these is more work then plot them new and build them again.

Also Iwan i asked Iwan if it’s okay if I apply for harvest hall. He alrdy agreed.

Well imo a redo is the way to go here. Now the mods decide.

 

[Enah]

Stoop did not say the green was done, he said the red was

 

[Jeffjunior77]

Stoop did not say the green was done, he said the red was

Sry mb

 

[Emoticone11]

We've discussed the appeal and decided to approve Harvest Hall for redo, due to the fact that the build is abandoned and largely incomplete. While a small subsection of the build is close to being complete, requiring that this be preserved is too strict of a requirement and will likely deter people from stepping up to finish the project. Hence we only tend to make such a requirement in the case of recently abandoned or nearly-complete projects.

Of course, this comes with the usual caveat that this appeal just determines whether a redo can be applied for, and doesn't guarantee that any particular application will be approved. Any aspects of the proposed style or project plans should be discussed in the application thread.

 

[Emoticone11]

As a personal suggestion: I would seriously consider using the existing work (mainly the part Stoop highlighted in red) as a base, even if you plan to update the style. Your main argument against doing so seems to be that it's quicker to just redo things from scratch than it is to update them. However, while this is sometimes true, it is not guaranteed at all, especially due to the fact that WorldEdit is somewhat limited (both in tools and capacity) at the moment. It may very well be easier to update the existing builds and terrain than to have to remove everything using WE, re-terraform the area, and then build all the houses and fields back up from scratch. This is mostly a practical question and I would suggest thinking more about what concrete efforts would be needed with either option when you go to make your application.

 

[Enah]

If the project gets redone, please let me know I will take the old castle and reuse it elsewhere, if that's ok by Iwan

 

[Emoticone11]

I may also have a good spot for it in my Vale megabuild, with similar terra, although the stone palette would have to change

 

[Iwan]

Did not have time to read through all this, but need to reply to a specific point, even though this is already decided.

Is the current, afaik almost finished, portion of Harvest Hall by Iwan entirely unsalvageble?

Yes.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

Tbh a Ghost Hill style update might be most appropriate, keep the spirit of the original but fundamentally add on and redevelop it to be within modern standards

 

[AerioOndos]

My main issue with current harvest hall is that it places the castle on a mountain spur. This doesn't really allow for the area around castle to be the breadbasket of the marches. I need to try and find the canon and source that I'm paraphrasing here but will check WOIAF tonight.
If the castle were moved to where the big holdfast is currently, it allows for a large, expansive fields of grains and pasture land and really reinforce Selmy as a marcher house.
The marches are cooler than the reach. plains, moors and grasslands stretching between the Red Mountains and the Cockleswent river. It also sits in the rain shadow of the RMs, so much of the agriculture of the region will be from groundwater and springs, rather than rainfall.

Basically, the biome colour, vegetation and location of the castle current castle don't fit and neither do the mostly finished lands around it. Not to mention Appleton

*However*

The 4 big marcher lords (Caron, Selmy, dondarrion, Swann) aren't the only castles there should be in the Marches. These houses are the mightiest of the marcher lords but other smaller houses are also meant to defend the border. So, the current castle and area could be given a GH esque facelift (including terrain) and the castle reduced in size a bit but could roughly stay the similar/similar