More to Beyond the Wall.

otty

Prophet
In my application to Mance's camp, I added on an additional document to show the clans' migratory pattern in relation to Mance's camp.

This document implies that there are more locations than Mances' that need done and we currently have no plans to represent them. I would like to propose more projects Beyond the Wall for these abandoned locations. We may continue to use the map I created as a foundation or we may revise it. This is also to say that there are clans not mentioned closer south by the Wall or clans that did not join.

Not all these locations will stylistically look like Mances' tents nor should they. We must not forget some likely had more permanent settlements. However, each project will require extensive terrain rework. I'm hoping to find a fast, efficient and beautiful methodology to creating realistic snowy mountainous terrain that builders can follow. Hopefully, then they won't feel so overwhelmed. This region could also be seen as an opportunity to create a consistent appearance if we aim to develop a process for the terrain construction. Hopefully, with insight from other snowy region builders, we might be able to create a step by step process of building better mountains — better than the versions currently.

Since Beyond the Wall is the only region with a single project completed, we have a lot of room to step back from the current process of project undertaking which is "Here's the general location, you do the rest." While we've gotten better about merging projects together, there are still gaps in some areas and distinct differences between terrains. I would love to see a better set of guidelines for the North to approach these issues. I don't want these "rules" to be controlling creatively, but just defined guidelines. For instance here is what I believe should be added:

  • Map the region out beforehand to define the borders of the clans.
  • Create a process for forming terrain. This is not to restrict the vision a builder may want for their project. However, may they want to add ice caves they are free to do so but, the mountains, rivers and trees should stylistically be cohesive to the region.
  • We should manage the projects as a whole rather than individually. This isn't far from what we're doing now, as we have more defined styles. I'm just stating that it would be beneficial in a largely incomplete region that we ensure incoming projects complement one another.
  • Developing "experts," which we've kinda have going in other regions. We've got our Riverland enthusiasts, our Westerlands lovers, and our Reach only babes. These are people who have a preferred region who are able to provide insightful feedback. They are powerful in ensuring that things are up to standard both visually and in their accuracy. I could go further into my ideas here but, I don't want to bog down this thread with more text until interest is shown.


If the mods are willing, I would like to include new projects to the project list and propose a region-wide terrain format for Beyond the Wall. Hopefully, this post will create a discussion on giving this region the attention it needs and fully developing it.
 

AerioOndos

Donkey Lord
What you are saying is brilliant, so I'd like to just jump in and suggest something.


what if the clan areas are treated as projects. The crab worshipping clans on the east coast as a project, ice river clans as a project, men of the frozen shore as a project and so on.

another option would be to have the areas mapped and counted and then people apply with immersion projects e.g. (storrolds point crabbing / kelp farming hamlet) inside the clan boundaries of the map.
 
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otty

Prophet
What you are saying is brilliant, so I'd like to just jump in and suggest something.


what if the clan areas are treated as projects. The crab worshipping clans on the east coast as a project, ice river clans as a project, men of the frozen shore as a project and so on.

another option would be to have the areas mapped and counted and then people apply with immersion projects e.g. (storrolds point crabbing / kelp farming hamlet) inside the clan boundaries of the map.

That first suggestion is the primary reason I posted this thread, I wanted to generate more projects. Our Ice-River Clan had to come from somewhere. And not every clan is present at the current Mance's Camp. As far as all that is listed, our locations neglect this idea.

The second suggestion would be much more to manage as no one is sitting there ensuring that each clan is receiving the appropriate amount of care and love, or that they're being accurately represented.
 

lemonbear

Nymeria
Pronouns
she/her
I would say yes. It would be great to have an organized project system for beyond the wall. We have a small but pretty dedicated snow build group, and it'd be awesome if you guys could spearhead efforts in this area.
 

Emoticone11

The Dark Lord Sauron
(Moving this discussion from the texture pack thread)

The current iteration of the haunted forest should not remain and is hopefully going to be redone as projects are added and completed. The entirety of the forest is out of date.

Out of date as in canon, or style? What's the issue with it?
 
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AerioOndos

Donkey Lord
Yeah, I don’t quite get that. It’s more up to date that the worldpainter forests south of the wall, has dope smoothed snow. There are certainly details that could be added, streams, burrows, dead trees etc that would greatly liven up the vast expanse but I don’t see the need for a wholesale redo.

If there is to be one, it shouldn’t touch the snow layers. New forest can be seeded over the top but theres no point resmoothing any terrain.

If by outdated you refer to mono-culture, it definitely is in some areas. Perhaps if it is replaced with a new forest there could be thick sentinelL, Wolfswood, EmilyPine and lowredwood mixed in with SnowyPine
 

Emoticone11

The Dark Lord Sauron
I really like the feel of the current forest, including the sparsity of it and the dappled shadows that the trees project onto the snow. It feels haunting in a very subtle way - sort of peaceful and unnerving at the same time. Like I can imagine someone walking through the forest, with the wind rustling through the trees in the distance, and suddenly everything just goes quiet. v spooky.

Agree with the need for addition of immersive details and some other types of foliage in some areas but not a wholesale redo.
 
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otty

Prophet
Yeah, I don’t quite get that. It’s more up to date that the world painter forests south of the wall, has dope smoothed snow. There are certain details that could be added, streams, burrows, dead trees etc that would greatly liven up the vast expanse but I don’t see the need for a wholesale redo.

If there is to be one, it shouldn’t touch the snow layers. New forest can be seeded over the top but theres no point resmoothing any terrain.

If by outdated you refer to mono-culture, it definitely is in some areas. Perhaps if it is replaced with a new forest there could be thick sentinelL, Wolfswood, EmilyPine and low redwood mixed in with SnowyPine

Snow layering is irrelevant to this discussion on the basis as it began around the texture of snow on top of trees..

And by outdated I am referring to the fact that the trees are inaccurate. I tried to find a variation of softwood trees where the branches and needles are crammed into the top 1/5 and that would be found in colder biomes. However, they don't exist Particularly in areas that would be primal inspiration for the haunted forest such as the Boreal Forest in Canada. Also, the snow sits ontop of the trees in slabs, not layers.

2524
One of the reasons I made this thread was to address beyond the wall as whole rather than in portions and how we might go about ensuring consistency across the region. We have an almost entirely undeveloped region and the point I was trying to get with this current thread was to encourage that we bring it all up to date because we can (with the exclusion of lands far beyond the mountain range both North and Northwest where I support it being untouched, uninhabited and endless snow). We don't have older projects or preexisting ones hindering us from ensuring a consistent, fully edited region. A guide was to be created to ensure we don't run into a Peckledon vs Hawthrone vs Lyberr where three drastically different approaches to foliage occurred. We instead can build a region with solid footing and have guidelines on how to approach terraforming and design. Mapping out the clans were to tell builders "You have this area as your domain" so that each section is updated as fit to the vision of the builder.

Everything came down to a developing a method that allows builders to still do their own terra-work but ensuring that the region is fully addressed and not in patches. To not address portions seems to me to be neglectful of what I perceive to be server standards. Granted these are the standards I envision and others' perception and interpretation may variate and be no more or less wrong. However, if we believe in ensuring projects transition, and redoing projects to fulfill a high quality of terra and construction (Central Westerlands Project or Mander redo for instance); it seems contradictory in my eyes that beyond the wall would not address the same desire. That desire being to fulfill a quality of terraforming and forestry in each of its nook and crannies, not just portions.

So yes, I believe the forest should be redone.



I really like the feel of the current forest, including the sparsity of it and the dappled shadows that the trees project onto the snow. It feels haunting in a very subtle way - sort of peaceful and unnerving at the same time. Like I can imagine someone walking through the forest, with the wind rustling through the trees in the distance, and suddenly everything just goes quiet. v spooky.

Agree with the need for the addition of immersive details and some other types of foliage in some areas but not a wholesale redo.

All can still be achieved with appropriate tree types.


As stated above the trees currently have snow slabs ontop. Which are also not up to date as we have snow layers which will be used everywhere else. It's hard to want to leave the forest alone as someone who will be supplying their own forestry nearby as it is outdated for these reasons stated above. In a more refined list I will present below the issues:

1. Inaccurate trees
2. Snow slabs and not snow layers
3. Monotone trees types
4. (not stated but was agreed upon by you and Aerio) No foliage present.

I like the effects too, but they're not worth it in regard to the issues stated above.
 
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AerioOndos

Donkey Lord
Alright, I am changing camps. All for a redo of the haunted forest to feel more like a forest rather than a frozen wasteland with trees sticking out. Something that looks like it could come alive in summer, rather than be a boring pine plantation.
Hopefully there are schems that could speed it all up, like br scatter >80 or >78:7.
Make the Haunted Forest haunted (again)
2525
 
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Emoticone11

The Dark Lord Sauron
I took another look at the canon, and I think there's things both to support a re-terraforming of the haunted forest, but also go against some parts of your argument:

"Oak and ash trees can be found in the Haunted Forest, along with sentinels and weirwoods"


"Sentinels and soldier pines rose all around them, towering green-clad spears thrusting toward the sky. The forest floor was a bed of fallen needles as thick as a castle wall, littered with pinecones"

"The soldier pines and sentinels wore thick white coats, and icicles draped the bare brown limbs of the broadleafs."




Soldier pines and sentinels are (I believe) both GRRM inventions, and they're both canonically very tall trees. Sentinels are implied to have a high canopy, since there are multiple occasions in the books of people climbing them and observing people below. Both of these trees are represented in the current iteration of the haunted forest, with one being predominant and the other being scattered here and there (I forgot which is which).

I'd be cautious relying on Canada's boreal forests too much here just because they both happen to be in the far north of their respective worlds. The seasons are far different in Westeros, and it's entirely possible that some factor related to this causes trees in the far north to grow much higher canopies, less undergrowth, etc. Or more likely, GRRM doesn't care that much about dendrology and just thought up some descriptions of trees that he thought sounded cool. Either way, I think in this case we should primarily prioritize our own creative interpretation of the canon and the mood we want to evoke for people exploring the haunted forest above strict accordance with IRL analogues.

The canon also mentions leafless deciduous trees, which AFAIK our haunted forest doesn't have at all. And as others have said, we can reasonably infer that there are logs, rocks, and some other sorts of undergrowth. So these can be taken as support for the need for redoing the forests (but I'm still not convinced that a full-blown wiping of the slate is necessary to accomplish this). I guess I'd need to see a large diorama to make up my mind. Also, it would be a massive task - just judging by the livemap, it covers at least 4x as much area as the Rainwood. It'd have to be largely scripted.
 

AerioOndos

Donkey Lord
I believe the servers soldier pines are based on large Scots pines.
However, it appears to be based on the lonely examples, rather than when they are in a forest.
The schems for SnowySoldierL is one of the biggest offenders in terms of snow slabs. It even has full snow blocks to make up the shape of its canopy.
Maybe there could be an update to the snowy tree schems so that they no longer have slabs and the addition of a SoldierM schem?
Maybe there could also be Haunted Forest leafless tree schems, complete with icicles?
I have an idea for the forest and will try and make an example of it in the playground near /warp Norreytownv2.
 

otty

Prophet
I took another look at the canon, and I think there's things both to support a re-terraforming of the haunted forest, but also go against some parts of your argument:

"Oak and ash trees can be found in the Haunted Forest, along with sentinels and weirwoods"


"Sentinels and soldier pines rose all around them, towering green-clad spears thrusting toward the sky. The forest floor was a bed of fallen needles as thick as a castle wall, littered with pinecones"

"The soldier pines and sentinels wore thick white coats, and icicles draped the bare brown limbs of the broadleafs."




Soldier pines and sentinels are (I believe) both GRRM inventions, and they're both canonically very tall trees. Sentinels are implied to have a high canopy, since there are multiple occasions in the books of people climbing them and observing people below. Both of these trees are represented in the current iteration of the haunted forest, with one being predominant and the other being scattered here and there (I forgot which is which).

I'd be cautious relying on Canada's boreal forests too much here just because they both happen to be in the far north of their respective worlds. The seasons are far different in Westeros, and it's entirely possible that some factor related to this causes trees in the far north to grow much higher canopies, less undergrowth, etc. Or more likely, GRRM doesn't care that much about dendrology and just thought up some descriptions of trees that he thought sounded cool. Either way, I think in this case we should primarily prioritize our own creative interpretation of the canon and the mood we want to evoke for people exploring the haunted forest above strict accordance with IRL analogues.

The canon also mentions leafless deciduous trees, which AFAIK our haunted forest doesn't have at all. And as others have said, we can reasonably infer that there are logs, rocks, and some other sorts of undergrowth. So these can be taken as support for the need for redoing the forests (but I'm still not convinced that a full-blown wiping of the slate is necessary to accomplish this). I guess I'd need to see a large diorama to make up my mind. Also, it would be a massive task - just judging by the livemap, it covers at least 4x as much area as the Rainwood. It'd have to be largely scripted.


"The great sentinel was right there at the top of the ridge, where Will had known it would be, its lowest branches a bare foot off the ground. Will slid in underneath, flat on his belly in the snow and the mud, and looked down on the empty clearing below."

"He went to the tree, a vaulting grey-green sentinel, and began to climb. Soon his hands were sticky with sap, and he was lost among the needles."

"Sentinels and soldier pines rose all around them, towering green-clad spears thrusting toward the sky."

"Out there the trees grew huge, and the rangers said they seemed to brood and knew not men. It was small wonder the Night's Watch named it the haunted forest."

"By day they followed game trails and streambeds, the "ranger's roads" that led them ever deeper into the wilderness of leaf and root."

"Hills rising wild as far as the eye can see, covered with trees that no axe has ever touched. I saw the sunlight glinting off a lake, and clouds sweeping in from the west. I saw patches of old snow, and icicles long as pikes. I even saw an eagle circling. I think he saw me too. I waved at him."

"a path between rocks and puddles, past great oaks, grey-green sentinels, and black-barked ironwoods. In places the branches wove a canopy overhead"



This is some canon of the trees/forest. I skimmed a search of ice and fire for these so I may be missing a tidbit of info but so far they all point towards standard evergreens.

As far as mood, tall evergreens would represent everything you wish. For instance, our Stormlands use large tall pines and many areas there are canopied aswell but don't have the acacia-like tree head. I simply referenced the boreal forest as an inspiration not an area of re-interpretation, as we all know the server rarely takes to taking something into verbatim. And I have no intent creating the guidelines to make it so that the forest is directly that. Actually, the Rockies during the winter would be what I'd love to see constructed as they match his description of the forest despite not matching in terms of longitude

And just as a fun "lets apply GRRM logic" game:

GRRM lives in Santa Fe NM.
A large national park surrounds the city known as Carson National Forest.
This forest does receive snowfall.
The forest matches his description of the haunted forest in places.
Just north of Sante is the Rockies.
I wouldn't disregard the idea that GRRM has also visited the Rockies.
GRRM probably based his books around local and nearby surroundings.

If we wish to continue with redoing the forest, I would actually point in the direction of using the Rocky Mountains as it combines the use of coniferous and deciduous trees well.

And again, I'm suggesting the forest be done as projects are done. Not just a single nuke and redone unless someone wants to do that. I know cash expressed interest in doing some of it. It may even be to my interest after Mances.

Give the forest some TLC.
Short for
T echnically
L -redoing
C -it

:)

Inspiration/references:Not perfect but they indicate designs and approaches we could take

 
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otty

Prophet
"The great sentinel was right there at the top of the ridge, where Will had known it would be, its lowest branches a bare foot off the ground. Will slid in underneath, flat on his belly in the snow and the mud, and looked down on the empty clearing below."

"He went to the tree, a vaulting grey-green sentinel, and began to climb. Soon his hands were sticky with sap, and he was lost among the needles."

"Sentinels and soldier pines rose all around them, towering green-clad spears thrusting toward the sky."

"Out there the trees grew huge, and the rangers said they seemed to brood and knew not men. It was small wonder the Night's Watch named it the haunted forest."

"By day they followed game trails and streambeds, the "ranger's roads" that led them ever deeper into the wilderness of leaf and root."

"Hills rising wild as far as the eye can see, covered with trees that no axe has ever touched. I saw the sunlight glinting off a lake, and clouds sweeping in from the west. I saw patches of old snow, and icicles long as pikes. I even saw an eagle circling. I think he saw me too. I waved at him."

"a path between rocks and puddles, past great oaks, grey-green sentinels, and black-barked ironwoods. In places the branches wove a canopy overhead"



This is some canon of the trees/forest. I skimmed a search of ice and fire for these so I may be missing a tidbit of info but so far they all point towards standard evergreens.

As far as mood, tall evergreens would represent everything you wish. For instance, our Stormlands use large tall pines and many areas there are canopied aswell but don't have the acacia-like tree head. I simply referenced the boreal forest as an inspiration not an area of re-interpretation, as we all know the server rarely takes to taking something into verbatim. And I have no intent creating the guidelines to make it so that the forest is directly that. Actually, the Rockies during the winter would be what I'd love to see constructed as they match his description of the forest despite not matching in terms of longitude

And just as a fun "lets apply GRRM logic" game:

GRRM lives in Santa Fe NM.
A large national park surrounds the city known as Carson National Forest.
This forest does receive snowfall.
The forest matches his description of the haunted forest in places.
Just north of Sante is the Rockies.
I wouldn't disregard the idea that GRRM has also visited the Rockies.
GRRM probably based his books around local and nearby surroundings.

If we wish to continue with redoing the forest, I would actually point in the direction of using the Rocky Mountains as it combines the use of coniferous and deciduous trees well.

And again, I'm suggesting the forest be done as projects are done. Not just a single nuke and redone unless someone wants to do that. I know cash expressed interest in doing some of it. It may even be to my interest after Mances.

Give the forest some TLC.
Short for
T echnically
L -redoing
C -it

:)

Inspiration/references:Not perfect but they indicate designs and approaches we could take





LASTLY, Bless for the citadel URL. This will help immensely! It indicates our current iteration of the BTW is missing elements and makes it easy for me to break down for mapping.
 
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Emoticone11

The Dark Lord Sauron
This is some canon of the trees/forest. I skimmed a search of ice and fire for these so I may be missing a tidbit of info but so far they all point towards standard evergreens.

Yeah, you caught me on not being thorough enough with the canon. I missed the first quote you gave.

I'm really struggling to put together those quotes into a coherent vision in my mind. Someone is "sliding" under an evergreen-like tree with branches/needles a foot off the ground... then climbing it through thick needles... then being able to witness a scene directly below on the ground? Seems hard enough for me to get a good hold of my tiny christmas evergreen tree, let alone climb one of those things.

Anyways, I think tall evergreens could work. There are also these trees which grow in some areas around where I live - I'm not sure what specific type of tree they are, but they seem to fit my head-image pretty well.

I do actually feel that the forest should be a single project, if it's done at all. Otherwise there's not really any guarantee that someone decides to apply for the rest once someone does 1/5 of it, and you just end up with one section of forest that's dramatically different than the others for a long time. If it's possible to develop scripts which can generate the bulk of the forest, like @Thamus_Knoward has done at Rousemont, that would be ideal (provided it's better than the existing forests). Then the person leading the project can focus most of their creative efforts towards making manual high-quality forest around the notable locations, or any other special areas they feel like.

Also, I think I'd really just need a diorama to be fully convinced in one direction or the other.
 

AerioOndos

Donkey Lord
To explain the Will quotes, he first goes to the top of the ridge and looks down on the clearing. He is relatively hidden from sight because the tree he is beneath, and later climbs, has branches very close to the ground and so he lies on his stomach beneath them. He then later climbs said tree after talking with Waymar Royce iirc.

I agree on the forest being done as a singular project. There are too many worldpainter trees tucked away in the gaps between projects and it can break immersion. If say, between wildling village 1 and wildling village 2, which had redone forests encircling them, there was a grove of WolfswoodXL trees, it would really break immersion.
 

Joseidon1

Poet
Although this thread looks a little bit abandoned, it looks like the best place to ask this:
What are the current plans for doing the land beyond the wall?I haven't seen any thread talking about the wilding clans without canon project but this one. Or is the process still not defined and open for contributions?
 
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