Withdrawn House Florent lands & Brightwaterkeep and eventual redo

[Nuggets - Shygirlstan]

Note: This is not an application by any means

With the Oldtown server build approaching I would like to adress the possibility of having Brightwater Keep and Florent lands be allowed a redo.

I belive that all three categories of requirements for a redo are somewhat met by the project.

a) Server Build Clause: If the build under consideration is a server build, it may be allowed to be redone after extensive discussion. However, server build redos will in general be postponed until all incomplete server builds are either complete or in progress. When server builds are redone, it will only be done if the redo does not have substantial impact on the direction of our completion rate.

The keep should suffer the same fate as Blackcrown and Threetowers who were both destroyed as to allow them to be better incorporated in the OT "belt" of houses. As it stands this project is surrounded by newer terraforming and projects. It does not match in style with Bandallon, Honeyholt or the Oldtown region. It feels more fitting for the Vale visually.

b) Inadequate Canon Clause: If the build under consideration objectively lacks important canon, which directly impacts the planning or style of the build, it may be allowed to be redone. For this to be satisfied, the claimant must prove unambiguously that a substantial amount of canon has been missed. The claimant's case will be assisted if it can be shown that this lack of canon was understood to be an issue before they intended to apply for redo.

This quote is from the Clash of Kings apendix:

The Florents, like the Tyrells, claim descent from the extinct House Gardener, the defunct Kings of the Reach. The Florents have a superior line of descent, and believe that they by rights should possess Highgarden.

While the keep is proper for such a big and powerful house in size, there is a lack of fields and sources of income for such a great house withing the reach. The only noteworthy location in the lands is the small market town of Greenmarket and it does not have anything outsanding.

Furthermore the market town isn't really visually a major trading hub and dosen't have a large market area.

From our wiki:

Greenmarket, the largest settlement on the Honeywine after Oldtown, and a major trading center for agricultural products.

As said,the town itself dosen't feel like a trade center aside for the smallish docks that can house two barges.

It is hard to portray them as a powerful house of the reach when their lands are so bare.

This image also depicts a vast area of unused land north of the keep:

Also another issue that arises with this project is the narrow bridge passage and that there are wider barges up river:

Barge 1

Barge 2

c) Abandoned Build Clause: If a build is incomplete and filed under the project orphanage as an abandoned build, it may be allowed to be redone. The intuition behind this clause is that it can be difficult to pick up someone else's outdated work, and if we expect people to do this very few people would want to apply to finish abandoned builds. However, moderators reserve the right to veto a redo for an abandoned build if they deem the existing portions to be particularly high quality.

The project has incomplete elements:
(A)

(B)

In conclusion, aside that the project dates from 2014 making it hard to blend in with the newer projects that literally surround it, there are canon issues about the house's standing within the ASOIAF universe in regards to how the lands portray their standing. There are technical issues with the river and the bridge, the market town is not finished and most importantly there are doubts of how this project will integrate with OT in the future.
Hope this helps put in perspective why some of us think Brightwaterkeep should be allowed aredo under our no redos rules.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

Plus the Florents suck and deserve to be in constant redo mode

 

[Thamus_Knoward]

Just to clarify, our wiki is not trustworthy in terms of canon information. Whatever it says there unless backed up by a reference should not be taken as canon!

In fact, after a quick check through all ASOIAF related literature (https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=...[]=trp&scope[]=affc&scope[]=tss&scope[]=tpatq) it turns out that Greenmarket is not a 'real' location.

Therefore, in my eyes, the inadequate canon clause does not apply in this case. Canon cannot be inadequate for a place that doesn't exist canonically. Moreover, if the only 'incomplete' aspects you found are two empty plots, then simply removing said plots would at restore the impression of completeness.
And lastly, this place is not even close to the immediate vicinity of Oldtown and it is buffered by the project lands of Honeyholt. I don't think that clause a) applies here since this place isn't even close to the OT "belt" of houses. If we skip one row of houses around OT and look at all of these houses we might aswell be arguing to redo Hammerhall, Hastywyck, Uplands, and Yelshire.

The bridge can be fixed and the lack of fields and sources of income can simply be added in (especially in the stretch between lymansferry and greenmarket) without requiring a full redo.

I argue that an update is far more reasonable than a redo.

 

[Enah]

To be clear, Hastwyck is practically up to par with Bandallon, Hammerhal IS being redone, uplands desperately needs it and Yelshire was actually just finished about a year ago and established a more modern style of its type.

 

[Thamus_Knoward]

"To be clear, Hastwyck is practically up to par with Bandallon, Hammerhal IS being redone, uplands desperately needs it and Yelshire was actually just finished about a year ago and established a more modern style of its type."

The point I was trying to make is this: Where does the area of influence of a server project end if we can willynilly expand it to consume more and more projects?


Given your own clauses, I don't see a redo applicable to Brightwaterkeep. But I'd be happy to volunteer to coordinate an update following the Cressey model.

 

[Enah]

Cressey was not updated, it was finished having only been started last year then left by it's builder and was not up to standards when approved to be built (still falls somewhat short but is staying true to it's original builder's idea)

Now, I would argue that when the Honeywine is redone further north (to be of the same standards as the parts near Oldtown are to be) that Honeyholt's shorelines and those of BWK will have to be retouched, especially BWK's awkward random water sources and weirdly deep channel. However, if the opinion is to keep what is there and just update, then it will be a good amount of work removing the logs, roofs of houses to make them less 2014, fixing D&W patterns, gradients, roads/inclines of roads, fields and pastures.

Also, Greenmarket is not a canon location, but neither is Rousemont, Mandergate nor most of our settlements, so I wouldn't bring that bit up. Creative license has been a boon to this server in the area of realistic locations and surroundings.

 

[EStoop]

To clarify a couple of things, Blackcrown and Threetowers were leveled because they got in the way of a proper terraform of the immediate Oldtown area, meaning that the lack of space to terraform in would have had direct results on the city itself. Their style, age or layout were, although fixed by the whipeout, not the leading cause for it.

The arguments made here for the redo would apply to all builds older than 2 years old. Why would a redo of Florent be allowed if over half of the projects on the server are in the same situation?

Also, Uplands needing a redo? What!? Last time I checked the project was still in a relatively good shape.

 

[Enah]

Also, Uplands needing a redo? What!? Last time I checked the project was still in a relatively good shape.

good joke the castle's fine, the lands...

 

[Thamus_Knoward]

Now, I would argue that when the Honeywine is redone further north (to be of the same standards as the parts near Oldtown are to be) that Honeyholt's shorelines and those of BWK will have to be retouched, especially BWK's awkward random water sources and weirdly deep channel.

However, if the opinion is to keep what is there and just update, then it will be a good amount of work removing the logs, roofs of houses to make them less 2014, fixing D&W patterns, gradients, roads/inclines of roads, fields and pastures.

I'm well aware of what an update would entail and am willing to draft and coordinate a shared systematic effort.

Also, Greenmarket is not a canon location, but neither is Rousemont, Mandergate nor most of our settlements, so I wouldn't bring that bit up.

Why not? It should be brought up especially when supposed "canon inconsistency" is used to argue for the removal of a project. It's nonsensical to make that argument when the location is not a canon location or the source material that the argument was based upon isn't canon in itself. I don't know why you bring Rousemont or Mandergate into this. Again, and just to be really clear, I don't dispute or criticise the existence of non-canon locations and how much of a "boon to this server" they are, I merely make that point that arguing with canon-inconsistency for such locations is void.

 

[Enah]

i Actually don’t even know why I brought them up, I don’t even remember writing that, but I apologize for my subconscious argumentative side.

 

[Emileld]

What's the point of updating a build that just doesn't fit with the building style of the area? It's gonna be less effort to completely redo the build anyway.

 

[Margaery_Tyrell]

Redo everything constantly forever

 

[Nuggets - Shygirlstan]

Just to clarify, our wiki is not trustworthy in terms of canon information. Whatever it says there unless backed up by a reference should not be taken as canon!

I could have formulated what I meant better;
My point was that the trade village does not match the canon importance of the house (mainly because at the time the reach wasn't a well established building region, this built dates from 2014), I realize that it's not canon. This especially because the rest of the project also has a low ammount of fields or other economical activity.

 

[EStoop]

I could have formulated what I meant better;
My point was that the trade village does not match the canon importance of the house (mainly because at the time the reach wasn't a well established building region, this built dates from 2014), I realize that it's not canon. This especially because the rest of the project also has a low ammount of fields or other economical activity.

With this argumentation regarding canon there are a lot of projects that meet the "requirements".

 

[Wazgamer]

Consult the redo rules posted by Emot, however there has been a lot of redo propositions recently, we’ve already told them to wait until HG is underway before starting. I understand this isn’t a server build like the other project I am referring too but it shares similar reasons for a redo.

I’d prefer we wait until the OT style is established and finalised before we start touching projects nearby for redos

 

[Elduwin]

Also, the new redo rules aren't meant to authorize and promote redo everywhere and all the time.
Our main goal is and should always be to move on and make progress, in style, architecture, textures, terraforming, but also in terms of completion of our Westeros recreation.
Yes, BWK and Florent lands will certainly need a redo, but there are still so many projects left to finish/do before thinking of all these redos that I'm really not in favor of redoing it now.

 

[Enah]

No one is saying to redo it this very moment, it does say "eventual redo" which is more inevitable than eventual.

 

[Elduwin]

Then there's no need to discuss about it now, otherwise we could discuss about half of the finished projects...
I just don't see the point of pointing out that BWK could need redo if everybody agrees it's really not the priority.

 

[Wazgamer]

We regret to inform you that due to deep discussion and a modly vote, that we are to decline the appeal to redo Brightwater Keep at this time. It will be reconsidered at a later date, when the time is right.

Thank you - waz