Desmera
Poet
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Abandoned House Doggett - Desmera
- Thread starter Desmera
- Start date
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The Spring 2023 edition of The Rookery is now out! Take a look to see the latest builds, guides, progress and development updates on the upcoming 1.18.2 switch. You can read it here:
https://indd.adobe.com/view/f943da18-ed77-4d55-845d-fee9bfa14247
EStoop
Knight of Fairmarket
Hey Des,
I made a quick list with feedback/questions for your app.
Map
I made a quick list with feedback/questions for your app.
Map
- First thing I noticed is the sizable gap between Yarwyck and your plans. What will happen with those lands?
- The plans seem to be a patchwork of different shapes and forms. Do they follow terrain or have any other reason to be shaped the way you shaped them?. What will come into the various empty stretches of lands such as along the coast and the upper valleys?
- There seems to be an important road going through the mountains towards Payne, which isn’t yet there. Why, and how? Would this be a goat track or a regular road?
- Why are there military camps at Dogget? The Lannisters gather their men at Lannisport.
- What would the coast look like?
- The Dogget plans seem to be roughly twice as large as Yarwyck. Take that into consideration. To give an indication of how large this project is, the area seems to be of similar size as Fairmarket and its surroundings.
- I advice to either exclude the eastern portion of your plans or to pick a smaller project in the Westerlands, such as that of house Garner or Parren.
- The lands of House Dogget are getting close to the Riverlands. I see no indication of this in the style of the project. Have you considered this or do you think this is not needed?
- I noticed some of the houses have multiple storeys. Why would the local populace build upwards?
Desmera
Poet
Hei Stoop,
My feedback of your feedback
My feedback of your feedback
1.These lands are of the house Yarwyck, when I take them up, you would write to me again - you have a very big project, that you write to me at the end, so that yarwyck is already quite old, and I will not interfere with a project that will be in the future will redo.
2. The way is small road in the mountains, it was once used a lot but it lost its meaning over time. And now they try restore it.
3. The camp is there because this house is near Riverlands and if Starks make a huge raid on the Westerlands, they need to defend the castle because most of the soldiers have already been taken away. There are 150 peasants.
4. I don't want to make big changes to the terrain because it suits me quite well.
5. The project is bounded by mountains and the sea and there are 2 next projects to the north. So I don't think it should look like Riverland castle.
6. And would they build downwards? They are middle class houses of port village, there will be a few.
2. The way is small road in the mountains, it was once used a lot but it lost its meaning over time. And now they try restore it.
3. The camp is there because this house is near Riverlands and if Starks make a huge raid on the Westerlands, they need to defend the castle because most of the soldiers have already been taken away. There are 150 peasants.
4. I don't want to make big changes to the terrain because it suits me quite well.
5. The project is bounded by mountains and the sea and there are 2 next projects to the north. So I don't think it should look like Riverland castle.
6. And would they build downwards? They are middle class houses of port village, there will be a few.
- Pronouns
- they/them
I have a feeling that no new canon is going to be introduced that cause necessity for the redo of Yarwyck. You make no mention of the destruction of the seat of House Doggett by Maegor on Balerion. And Joffrey Doggetts close family died in the fire and he joined the kingsguard later with no mention of a wife, It is likely a younger branch of the family currently rules (perhaps they used to be in a towerhouse/hf somewhere and now have moved into the castle).
Also, there should be some kind of pass or other method to get to Golden Tooth because "By late 45 AC, Joffrey [Doggett] ruled the hill country north of the Golden Tooth in all but name" -ASoIaF Wiki (I know it isn't necessarily a canon resource) because of his small army of two thousand seven-following volunteers. So there must be a pass north otherwise it would likely have mentioned ruling the Coastal area.
Also, there should be some kind of pass or other method to get to Golden Tooth because "By late 45 AC, Joffrey [Doggett] ruled the hill country north of the Golden Tooth in all but name" -ASoIaF Wiki (I know it isn't necessarily a canon resource) because of his small army of two thousand seven-following volunteers. So there must be a pass north otherwise it would likely have mentioned ruling the Coastal area.
- Pronouns
- they/them
EStoop
Knight of Fairmarket
In response to your feedback on my feedback, here is some feedback regarding your feedback on my feedback.
1 | House Yarwyck lands
4 | Terrain
1 | House Yarwyck lands
- A Yarwyck redo seems unlikely; there is no contradicting canon nor is the project outdated. The land has not been utilised in any way by the builder of Yarwyck, so that responsibility falls upon whomever takes up the project next to it.
- I mentioned the size of the project because I think it is a large project to take up as a first solo. If you wish to do it regardless that would be your decision and you are free to decide for yourself.
- Small road seems fine, keep in mind though that making roads through/over mountains is expensive and hard.
- It appears that house Dogget decided wartime is the best moment to start renovating their castle, a holdfast and a long unused road to Payne. I could understand the defensive buildings, but not so much the road. How would they restore these structures if their peasants are being conscripted into the army of house Dogget?
House Stark didn’t even consider invading the Westerlands from the coast, nor did it retreat along the coast for the wedding at the twins. This, combined with the fact that the area is a salient into the Riverlands up to the Blue Fork and Oldstones, implies to me that the area is hard to reach from the Riverlands (possibly due to wetlands or other natural features).
The Stark army has great success in the Westerlands after they sneak past the Golden Tooth, because it was assumed one must first conquer the Tooth to enter the Westerlands. The lords had not gathered defensive forces due to the Golden Tooth.
The Stark army has great success in the Westerlands after they sneak past the Golden Tooth, because it was assumed one must first conquer the Tooth to enter the Westerlands. The lords had not gathered defensive forces due to the Golden Tooth.
- Fine by me, didn’t ask for changes to terrain but rather how you would fill it and make it feel immersive.
- I am not saying the project should look like a Riverlands project, but realistically they would not have the same style as the central Westerlands. You could borrow elements from the Riverlands, such as wood as a more common building material or 45 degree angled roofs rather than 30 (especially so since you use thatch, which wouldn't be waterproof at an angle less than 45 degrees).
- No need for sarcasm regarding the houses. You indicated the main village would be around 15 houses, while the other hamlets would be around 10. Middle class is usually something only found in larger towns, because you’d need to generate a considerable income to become middle class during the middle ages.
- The only middle class I can come up with that might be present in such a town is either lesser nobility such as knights, or farmers with their own farm. In the case of lesser nobility, there won’t be more than one, two tops in a village you described. In the case of farmers, they wouldn’t settle in a village. In your test I see a street with 3 middle class houses, indicating to me that at least 20% of a small village is part of the local upper class.
- The same street has buildings side to side against each other, something which would be uncommon in a village of 15 houses unless they are somehow restricted from building in a more spacious manner.
- The seat of house Dogget was destroyed by Balerion, a dragon known to spew fire hot enough to melt stone. His best known handiwork is Harrenhal. Without a doubt the castle would have been damaged, if not destroyed beyond repair. I think it’s likely the ancient seat of house Dogget was destroyed by the dragonflame, and a new one has been built elsewhere. The ruined seat could be First Men in design, since the raven in their sigil implies to me that the house has first men/old gods roots.
- A destroyed seat would mean a considerable loss in wealth, since building a seat is expensive and gold and other goodies are generally not resistant to dragonfire.
- Since Joffrey Dogget was a member of the Warrior’s Sons he wouldn’t be the lord of the Dogget lands. In order to join the institution you have to give up all your land and claims. So he likely controlled the area because the Faith Militant had a strong presence there, and he was the Grand Captain of it.
Desmera
Poet
By mutual agreement with Stoop, I reworked a map and something of the lore.
Ruined holdfast -> old castle of house Doggett
Military camp -> field
Port village -> 15 houses without middle class
Other hamlets -> 5-10 houses
Holdfast -> holdfast of the Faith
I removed a dornish mud plaster, and the houses will have roof with 45°.
Military camp -> field
Port village -> 15 houses without middle class
Other hamlets -> 5-10 houses
Holdfast -> holdfast of the Faith
I removed a dornish mud plaster, and the houses will have roof with 45°.
- Pronouns
- she/her
I've taken a closer look at your tests and application, and I have a few comments/suggestions.
1. I think it's a good idea to include your brown d&w house test, since it'll aid with the transition to the Riverlands. Additionally, I do not think your current plans for a dense (but somehow very small) port town will work with your current tests (but do not change your house tests). Can you please draw up a more detailed map of what your plotting plans are for your port town?
2. What are your plans for the rest of the coast line? You have a lot of space there, but you don't go into too much detail of what you're planning to do there in terms of beaches/rocky areas/etc.
3. On your castle tests, The two-block deep stone overhangs look a bit odd, especially since they are both on a diagonal. Maybe reduce the overhang to one block deep?
4. In addition to several hamlets, it might be a good idea to have several farm complexes to populate the lands a bit more.
1. I think it's a good idea to include your brown d&w house test, since it'll aid with the transition to the Riverlands. Additionally, I do not think your current plans for a dense (but somehow very small) port town will work with your current tests (but do not change your house tests). Can you please draw up a more detailed map of what your plotting plans are for your port town?
2. What are your plans for the rest of the coast line? You have a lot of space there, but you don't go into too much detail of what you're planning to do there in terms of beaches/rocky areas/etc.
3. On your castle tests, The two-block deep stone overhangs look a bit odd, especially since they are both on a diagonal. Maybe reduce the overhang to one block deep?
4. In addition to several hamlets, it might be a good idea to have several farm complexes to populate the lands a bit more.
Desmera
Poet
Hei Lem,
1. I've done a small model in my plot, check it. I will try to make it look as good as possible. But I'll decide how it will look in real world after I plan it there.
2. - Coast line - I hope I'll add some houses of fishermen there (2/3). Some fields could be near port village and the coast should be sand beach, but I'll see.
3. I want to add some leaves, etc there, but yea, I've tried it with one block and it looks good.
4. If I could draw every house there so it would be for a long time, so these ones are the main hamlets. There will be some barns, granaries, etc...
1. I've done a small model in my plot, check it. I will try to make it look as good as possible. But I'll decide how it will look in real world after I plan it there.
2. - Coast line - I hope I'll add some houses of fishermen there (2/3). Some fields could be near port village and the coast should be sand beach, but I'll see.
3. I want to add some leaves, etc there, but yea, I've tried it with one block and it looks good.
4. If I could draw every house there so it would be for a long time, so these ones are the main hamlets. There will be some barns, granaries, etc...
Enah
Skinchanger
Desmera
Poet
2 houses near Yarwyck, 3 - coast line, 3 - middle forest, 1 - mountains for farmer with goats, 2 - holdfast, 2 - east/south hamlet
1 granary - castle hamlet
1 granary - castle
1 storage for apples - east/south hamlet
1 lumberjack camp - old ruined castle
1 small house for lord when he hunts in forest of Yarwyck
1 larger farm complex near castle
1 granary - castle hamlet
1 granary - castle
1 storage for apples - east/south hamlet
1 lumberjack camp - old ruined castle
1 small house for lord when he hunts in forest of Yarwyck
1 larger farm complex near castle
an_escaped_duck
Envoy
This information is fine des, but if you are going to spend the next month or longer working on this project, the least you can do is to take an hour and draw a really good map so we can be sure your plans are up to scratch. I would suggest zooming in very close and drawing a map at (or close to) scale using one pixel per block. This will also help you get a sense for the size of the lands and the terrain. Look at bandallons original map or hawthorne maps for examples of detailed maps.
- Pronouns
- she/her
I've check out your models for the area, and I'm ready to approve on the condition that you wait to open building until your plotting is approved by the approving mods.
Desmera
Poet
Desmera
Poet
I know I'm a little late to the party, but wanted to weigh in after taking a look at the app. I'm a little concerned at the references to english gardens (you have victorian references) and apple orchards so close to the sea (which is super risky), especially in an area that I think is known for being frequently raided by the Ironborn in the past? Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Just make sure that however the castle ends up, it doesn't end up some southern-reach-esque pleasure palace on a coastline.. I'm currently getting those vibes and think it'd do the region a disservice, when there's a wealth of canon and references that should suggest the projects position is one of security and defence.
Best of luck!
Best of luck!
Desmera
Poet
Hei Ark,
now when I started the project so I have a real image about coast line, etc. So lands near port village - sand beach -> some trees and meadow -> fields. I will add some wind mills there. Apple orchards should be in the upper parts of Doggett, by the mountains. Victorian gardens = I just wanted to say it won't look like gardens in the Reach, just three flowers and one tree.
- CASTLE -
Don't worry, I want defensive castle.
now when I started the project so I have a real image about coast line, etc. So lands near port village - sand beach -> some trees and meadow -> fields. I will add some wind mills there. Apple orchards should be in the upper parts of Doggett, by the mountains. Victorian gardens = I just wanted to say it won't look like gardens in the Reach, just three flowers and one tree.
- CASTLE -
Don't worry, I want defensive castle.