The North - Terra Update

[carci]

Hey yo terraformers!

This will be the thread for all non-project specific terraforming in The North. The North was worldpainted in 2013 (iirc) and that means the terrain isn't up to server standards anymore, so there's a plenty of terra work available. We're talking about redoing and/or updating the forests, rivers, beaches and coastlines, islands, roads and so on, all sorts of fun stuff. This doesn't include redoing or updating any existing builds, we'll be working around them and keeping them intact.

If you already have experience with worldedit and terraforming, and want to take part on this big project, post your plans on this thread. If you want to make an "official" project application, that'd be great especially on larger projects, but in general I'm fine with keeping this more relaxed and less formal. So, a map depicting the area you want to work on, some inspiration pics ands a short description of what your plans is a good starting point. Of course, if there's any canon info about the area, make sure to include that too.

If you're a beginner with worldedit and terra work and would like to take part, no worries. Many terraforming tasks are quite simple and scripts make them even easier. As soon as we get the ball rolling and things start happening, I'm sure there'll be lots of nice small sub-projects you can work on and learn new skills.

This thread will also work as a repository for all sorts of terraforming scripts and worldedit/voxel tips and tricks; naturally these will focusing on northern terrain, but many of them will be useful on other areas of the continent too. The scripts will later be collected on a larger, more comprehensive collection of worldedit scripts. In addition, I'll try to come up with some sort of basic system for placeholder blocks in scripts, which will enable us to mix and match different scripts by different authors as smoothly as possible.

I'm currently working on Barkwood area (south of Winterfell) and the northern parts of White Knife river. In a future post I'll share some of the scripts I've used there and briefly explain how they work.

See you up north!

 

[AerioOndos]

Hey hey, this is me Aeksio just chipping in some ideas for other areas of the north that would definitely love a bit of revitalisation.

So firstly these are my ideas for the Stoney Shore, mixture of rocky coastline and pebbled beaches, like sections of Cornwall. (Need to sleep but will have imgur doc ready in the morning edit)
This would result in a mixture of both great and small coves and bays with large pronounced headlands, sometimes producing stacks similar to Tintagel Castle.
There would be also a good opportunity for making caught seaweed (perhaps seaweed /kelp farming is a local industry?), driftwood and best of all, tide pools. We’ve got duckweed and a cushion moss block, we can surely make some really cool washed up things. I’d be willing to go over sections by hand to put these details in after scripting has been done.
Inland would require using or Seri’s brilliant rock schems and changing to the right terrainset or to make Tors and create boulders similar to the famous rock formations in Dartmoor and parts of Cornwall.
Smaller sharper beaches will have more surviving settlements closer to them, while the long beaches with ease of landing will have more ruins. Ironborn.

Question is, what to do with the islands off shore? Do we turn them into more Skelligs (rocky islands) like Johan did, into low islands that’re more like sandbars or to combine them and makes few small archipelagos or clusters of skelligs?
If we go with Skelligs, we could use the Cushion moss block as a grass replacement in some parts of the islands that way make an entirely different environment from the mainland.

 

[Joseidon1]

With Burley and Frost as wip projects and hopefully a soon Towers/Slate application, I'd like to get some clearance into the topic of the snow border. Last Hearth, Skagos, Bear Island, the wall, everything North of the wall and all mountain clans but Burley are completly covered under snow, while Burley, Deepwood Motte, Winterfell, Mollen, Towers, Longlake, Queenscrown (how?), Dreadfort, Karhold and Frost have some sort of transition between snow and no snow. Our current snow spread leavs places like seadragon point and Frost snowless, while places further South like Winterfell or parts of the wolfswood are snow coverd. I won't cover Frost in my post as it is Scubooty's project and I don't want to interfere as much with it, but the snow border in the Western part has a strange 90° angle between branch, highpoint and dwmhamlet2. If we would go with a snow border on roughly the same height everywhere, it would require covering one half of the wolfswood and seadragon point in snow. At that point a complety redo of the area might be more managable because the area is old (2013/2014 like carci already said.
Another option could be to say that there have been cold North winds for a few weeks which brought the Snow further South in the central parts of the North and not in the wolfswood/Frost, but I have no idea whether that is meterological possible or not. I made this very rough and uneducated draft of that idea. Black is the border of snow outsides of mountains, grey is the border between snow transition and everything coverd in snow and blue the wind direction.

https://imgur.com/a/ADXiPBY

This would only leave the topic of how to design the snow transition area. As far as I know, we don't have any modern test/areas for that, so some input for this would be appriciated at least from me.

 

[Azulejo]

how to design the snow transition area.

I don't know how helpful this could be, but this year central and eastern Spain experienced very heavy snowfall. This amazing image was taken at the peak of the snowstorm. You can see how on the flatter regions the transition is very gradual, like a blanket that fades away, but on the more montainous areas the border between the snow and the uncovered terrain is more harsh and irregular. It's not very useful for landscaping, but I think at least it gives of an idea on how to roughly defind the different regions on the map.

Spoiler: Satelite image and relief map

 

[AerioOndos]

Okay, so first off the heavy snow isn't a canon choice but a stylistic one to give variation to the north. Its almost as big as the other kingdoms combined so what an interesting way to make Last Hearth seem different from Torrhen's Square, despite using the same block palette (more northern cobbles ples).
Queenscrown is snowless because close to a year after the server setting, there is no mention of heavy snow in the gift. In fact, its described as having rolling grassland and bog around in the gift. The builder (Olliediscs iirc) decided to match canon rather than fit the server status quo.
A transition zone between snow and no snow would be brilliant. Some attempts have been made to get them together but few practices are going to work everywhere.
The Dreadfort has old snow that's turning into mud, around Winterfell there are two snowdrifts that look very good among grass but then there's just worldpainter snow to the north of it.
It would probably best to create two kinds of transition zone. Fresh snow and melting/old snow.

Fresh snow being snowlayer piles with minimal muddy snow whereas old snow have muddy snow surrounding snow layer patches like at the Dreadfort

 

[Scubooty]

The most recent transition zones are found just north of winterfell where rather than the speckling pattern that is very outdated it is a series of progressively smaller "lumps" as you go south and its pretty nice. I think thats a good starting point for people to take a look at.

 

[Scubooty]

Also I dont really have a clue what im doing about the snow atm. kinda been pushing it off lol

 

[Joseidon1]

The snow drifts at winterfell look pretty good and could definetly be used in the grassland parts of the transition. But most of the transition zone will probably end up in forrests. It might be worth to have some tree shems that are only covered in snow at the top, but I don't feel like I am able to build them. Another note to forrests, is it possible to find the air block above another block that has only air blocks above it? If we make those blocks 2 snow layers high and the surrounding blocks 1 snow layer, that could work as light snow that got stuck in the trees. But I am not sure if that is possible with WE.
I am also open for new snow transition zone border maps/ideas.

 

[DutchGuard]

Okay, so first off the heavy snow isn't a canon choice but a stylistic one to give variation to the north. Its almost as big as the other kingdoms combined so what an interesting way to make Last Hearth seem different from Torrhen's Square, despite using the same block palette (more northern cobbles ples).
Queenscrown is snowless because close to a year after the server setting, there is no mention of heavy snow in the gift. In fact, its described as having rolling grassland and bog around in the gift. The builder (Olliediscs iirc) decided to match canon rather than fit the server status quo.

Again, Aeks, the snow around Winterfell is canon. See my last post addressing this. The snow is "knee deep".
It could be that the snows at the start of Game of Thrones are an early flurry, and by the time Bran gets to Queenscrown (two books later, approximately 1 year and 9 months later) that early flurry might have melted.

If we go with 3/3/299 as the server date, that's about a year after the start of GoT where the Winterfell snow is mentioned, which could result in the state of the snow around Winterfell as it is now, as in, not fully melted.

Using these assumptions, I would expect to see the low-lying areas of the North between Winterfell and the Wall to have the appearance of early winter snow.
I think it would be a great start to replace all the snowy trees with normal pine, and perhaps a script can be worked out where some snow on the ground is replaced with browning grass and undergrowth.

 

[AerioOndos]

With a light snow, also, trees actually don't get covered unless its just fallen. Trees move with the wind, shaking off snow and so in fact light snowfall powders the area outside of the canopy.

I agree with you Dutch, just I'm not too familiar with the canon rn. Also I'd love for the north to look more like that image you attached, it has just the right amount of snow. However, it would be lovely to have a few blocks to help enable this. Namely, a snowy grass block and a snowy grass grass, as an alternative to having leaves under snow.

 

[witherack]

Firstly, great image Dutch! It looks like exactly like what I'd love the North to be. Secondly, I think it will be important to look at this more as a region, especially because we should probably work out how big and where our transition zone is going to be and whether the snow will be melting away from previous falls or it is fresh (or a mixture), given as Aerio said this will inform how we do trees and also if we go for the snow going into mud look. This decision should probably be made after looking at the canon, which I will not pretend to know much about. Thirdly I think sometimes the current snow doesn't correlate to higher ground rather than lower ground if it that makes sense, because I see relatively high hills snow free but then further south or on the same longitude there is still snow. Finally, I'm just wondering how much we should use Winterfell as a benchmark for snow in the area given that it has hot springs which suggests geothermal activity and therefore probably a higher temperature than the rest of the area (Catelyn writes "The castle had been built over natural hot springs, and the scalding waters rushed through its walls and chambers like blood through a man's body, driving the chill from the stone halls, filling the glass gardens with a moist warmth, keeping the earth from freezing), although this last point is more me just speculating.

 

[Nomorefun_]

I have something like this, it is from 5th December so still autumn snow and it show that snow is keep in shadowed area.
It is 1 day after snowfall.

I

 

[Jakethesnake8_8]

Now that I'm an Editor, I'd love to help out here in the North. I'm not entirely sure about the procedure for helping out if you're going section by section, or if you can just say "Here's an area I'm interested in updating and here are my plans" and then get to it.

- Jake

 

[FD001__]

Again, Aeks, the snow around Winterfell is canon. See my last post addressing this. The snow is "knee deep".
It could be that the snows at the start of Game of Thrones are an early flurry, and by the time Bran gets to Queenscrown (two books later, approximately 1 year and 9 months later) that early flurry might have melted.

If we go with 3/3/299 as the server date, that's about a year after the start of GoT where the Winterfell snow is mentioned, which could result in the state of the snow around Winterfell as it is now, as in, not fully melted.

Using these assumptions, I would expect to see the low-lying areas of the North between Winterfell and the Wall to have the appearance of early winter snow.
I think it would be a great start to replace all the snowy trees with normal pine, and perhaps a script can be worked out where some snow on the ground is replaced with browning grass and undergrowth.

View attachment 8884

Old thread, but something I'd like to pick up on.

Was reading the AWoIaF wiki, and noticed this:

The mountains have deep, blue lakes and numerous piney woods. The foothills have russet and gold autumn leaves, but the mountains themselves have grey-green sentinels, spruce, fir, and soldier pines. The hills contain fish in streams and small game, but wildlife is scarcer in the mountains.

The foothills of the northern mountains are described as being autumnal - I was wondering how far north this extends - as Long Lake is described as being amongst the foothills of the northern mountains, I assume this would mean that Long Lake should be autumnal?

Either that or we put more autumnal patches nearer to waterways/like what Dutch suggested. There are issues with the White Knife anyway not having rapids, and Long Lake would probs have to undergo changes anyway whenever that issue gets corrected.

Was wondering what other people think/have any thoughts about this?

 

[AerioOndos]

We've known for a long time that the autumnal stretch actually goes all the way to Queenscrown in The Gift. Why we've got snow and ice covering part of the map is because of the rule of cool as well as to give some build diversity. The North is as large as most of the other kingdoms combined with a tiny amount of palette variation and style differences when compared to the southrons. Having snowy projects gives us diversity in style and environment. While it'd be so much easier to do snowless terrain south of the wall, it really does give a lot of flair to the map.

Still, I'd love to see a large stretch near the long lake be un iced and instead have snow on the highpoints around it, like the mountains, lonely hills etc so we can get a cool blend into the snow blanketed area. The first entirely snowy spot on the kingsroad could be on the watershed between longlake and Last River?
That'd give room to do a forest filled with badger setts and fox dens, trappers homes and herders crofts and streams for plenty of fish.

 

[FD001__]

We've known for a long time that the autumnal stretch actually goes all the way to Queenscrown in The Gift. Why we've got snow and ice covering part of the map is because of the rule of cool as well as to give some build diversity. The North is as large as most of the other kingdoms combined with a tiny amount of palette variation and style differences when compared to the southrons. Having snowy projects gives us diversity in style and environment. While it'd be so much easier to do snowless terrain south of the wall, it really does give a lot of flair to the map.

Still, I'd love to see a large stretch near the long lake be un iced and instead have snow on the highpoints around it, like the mountains, lonely hills etc so we can get a cool blend into the snow blanketed area. The first entirely snowy spot on the kingsroad could be on the watershed between longlake and Last River?
That'd give room to do a forest filled with badger setts and fox dens, trappers homes and herders crofts and streams for plenty of fish.

That was my thinking - the high moors/hills from Long Lake upto Queenscrown would be snow capped, with muddy/snowy lands in the low-lying areas especially near the waterways.



This sort of landscape, but with more tree cover essentially.

I've also produced a rough map of how this might work?

Blue: total snow cover
Cyan: Snowcapped at higher points (circa 120-150 blocks above sea level?), with autumn/snowy environment below that. See snows around Dreadfort, Winterfell.
Orange: Autumnal (extreme_hills biome, browning grass).

I might not be entirely accurate, but my thinking is that places like Karhold would still be covered in snow as the terrain along the eastern coast prevents the warm air current that moves up the Narrow Sea, from reaching the Karstark lands. This is why I've marked that area from Karhold along to Last Hearth as being totally snowed over - this microclimate is much colder in my mind.

Spots like around the Lonely Hills that are removed from warmer currents of air would be colder and likely snowed over completely (see previous image), with the lands around and below these hills having minimal snow cover.

To the east, the northern mountains are at a higher altitude so would be snow-covered (as they are currently) along with portions of the northern Wolfswood. This would explain the weird spikes of snow cover I've seen ppl complain about in the past lmao. Sanguine Grove is located in that small basin to the south-west.

 

[AerioOndos]

That was my thinking - the high moors/hills from Long Lake upto Queenscrown would be snow capped, with muddy/snowy lands in the low-lying areas especially near the waterways.

View attachment 13512

This sort of landscape, but with more tree cover essentially.

I've also produced a rough map of how this might work?
View attachment 13513
Blue: total snow cover
Cyan: Snowcapped at higher points (circa 120-150 blocks above sea level?), with autumn/snowy environment below that. See snows around Dreadfort, Winterfell.
Orange: Autumnal (extreme_hills biome, browning grass).

I might not be entirely accurate, but my thinking is that places like Karhold would still be covered in snow as the terrain along the eastern coast prevents the warm air current that moves up the Narrow Sea, from reaching the Karstark lands. This is why I've marked that area from Karhold along to Last Hearth as being totally snowed over - this microclimate is much colder in my mind.

Spots like around the Lonely Hills that are removed from warmer currents of air would be colder and likely snowed over completely (see previous image), with the lands around and below these hills having minimal snow cover.

To the east, the northern mountains are at a higher altitude so would be snow-covered (as they are currently) along with portions of the northern Wolfswood. This would explain the weird spikes of snow cover I've seen ppl complain about in the past lmao. Sanguine Grove is located in that small basin to the south-west.

I like a lot of your thinking, especially how you've supported it. However, I'd disconnect Queenscrown from the main patch partial snow cover. There needs to be a watershed between the Last River and the Gift so that there can be as much vertical height for the wall as possible. Because of that, we might as well cover that watershed in snow too. It'd also signal that the Wall is incoming .

While you back up the reasoning for Umber and Karhold being snowy well, it disagrees with some canon in my mind. The little information we have on Umber lands is that they are warmer than the lonely hills and mountains west of the kingsroad as Umber flocks are herded into the high places during summer. They should be a continuation of the autumn belt of the white knife and the hills around Last Hearth lowered, or at least stretch out further from the river so we can have a sheltered bit snowy, bit clear valley that really feels like the last unfrozen river the player gets to cross. Kinda like a savage human version of the Last Homely House at Rivendell. There should definitely be snow in the shadow of buildings in Last Hearth's surrounds though.
Umber lands stretch to the Bay of Seals, which likely has a warm current passing through it. Eastwatch doesn't freeze over completely, even in winter, and Skagos has iceless shores mid-autumn. The Bay of Seals also is home to the richest fishing grounds in the Known World, which makes me think that there might be undersea vents off Storrold's Point. Alternatively, an arctic current from the north could provide nutrient rich krill, plankton etc to enhance fish stocks. However, if this was the case, surely there'd be more ice cover and mention of icebergs/packs blocking off Eastwatch?
If Umber is open by sea, perhaps that means a warmer current circles Karhold? While it does have existing heavy snow cover, the Karstarks quickly muster a large force to meet with Robb (though we find out this has significantly depleted their harvest workforce). Imo this means we should have concentrated populations, particularly around the castle river/bay. Which should be uniced. Even the Grey cliffs should be devoid of snow except for the northern corner. Then the lands could be a patchwork of snowdrifts and farmsteads, with a high density of villages along the Bay of Seals too. Basically, light patchy snow cover rather than the full snowcover present already.

 

[FD001__]

I like a lot of your thinking, especially how you've supported it. However, I'd disconnect Queenscrown from the main patch partial snow cover. There needs to be a watershed between the Last River and the Gift so that there can be as much vertical height for the wall as possible. Because of that, we might as well cover that watershed in snow too. It'd also signal that the Wall is incoming .

While you back up the reasoning for Umber and Karhold being snowy well, it disagrees with some canon in my mind. The little information we have on Umber lands is that they are warmer than the lonely hills and mountains west of the kingsroad as Umber flocks are herded into the high places during summer. They should be a continuation of the autumn belt of the white knife and the hills around Last Hearth lowered, or at least stretch out further from the river so we can have a sheltered bit snowy, bit clear valley that really feels like the last unfrozen river the player gets to cross. Kinda like a savage human version of the Last Homely House at Rivendell. There should definitely be snow in the shadow of buildings in Last Hearth's surrounds though.
Umber lands stretch to the Bay of Seals, which likely has a warm current passing through it. Eastwatch doesn't freeze over completely, even in winter, and Skagos has iceless shores mid-autumn. The Bay of Seals also is home to the richest fishing grounds in the Known World, which makes me think that there might be undersea vents off Storrold's Point. Alternatively, an arctic current from the north could provide nutrient rich krill, plankton etc to enhance fish stocks. However, if this was the case, surely there'd be more ice cover and mention of icebergs/packs blocking off Eastwatch?
If Umber is open by sea, perhaps that means a warmer current circles Karhold? While it does have existing heavy snow cover, the Karstarks quickly muster a large force to meet with Robb (though we find out this has significantly depleted their harvest workforce). Imo this means we should have concentrated populations, particularly around the castle river/bay. Which should be uniced. Even the Grey cliffs should be devoid of snow except for the northern corner. Then the lands could be a patchwork of snowdrifts and farmsteads, with a high density of villages along the Bay of Seals too. Basically, light patchy snow cover rather than the full snowcover present already.

I see - my canon knowledge isn't as good haha!

Your points on the Umber lands make sense - I didn't consider the warm current would just wrap around the coastline and extend into the Bay of Seals. It would be good to have some last autumnal pockets of warmth - it fits the namesake of 'Last Hearth', being the last spot along the Last River to stay warm. It would provide the reasoning for why a settlement would develop there too.

I agree with what you said about Karhold lands - they should be only snowed over to the north and amongst the high points of the lands. We can probably increase the height of the hills around the western border of the Karstark lands, as this would act as the natural boundary between Umber/Karstark lands - rather than an arbitrary and unrealistic line across forests/plains that would be hard to enforce. The Last River could have some great points as it runs through these hills - rapids, falls etc?



Some images of what we could do.

I'll also try and make some new schems - new Larch schems for autumnal zones? Their needles turn yellow in autumn, so I can make something like NorthernLarch?

 

[inactive]

Coming back to this after a while - I made a forest test for the sort of old, late summer snow we were talking about. Lots of reds and oranges.

 

[AerioOndos]

I'm liking it so far. Also on the bit from ages ago about Umber karstark borders imo there shouldn't be a clear border along a geologically feature like hills or a stream. Umbers have the largest land area under their control of pretty much every house but mostly because their borders are blurred.

The western border for the Umbers is the high valleys of the Northern Mountains, which they share with the Northern Mountain Clans. They also heard flocks of sheep and goats into the Lonely Hills, presumably shared with the Boltons. They'd also be around the northern shores of the long lake depending on the season.