Withdrawn Project Application - Greywater Watch by SerLoras

[SerLoras]

Here is my take on Greywater Watch. I eagerly await you comments and criticism.

Project Greywater.pdf

drive.google.com

If you're looking for just the map and test images, you'll find them here. You can see all the tests in game at /warp loras. There are also terrain related tests at /warp necktrees and /warp necktest.

One final note, I am convinced that Greywater Watch is not actually a "moving castle," and I have planned this project accordingly. If you disagree, I recommend paying special attention to the Reed's Moving Castle? section of the application, which is on page 13. The Canon Analysis starting on page 6 also has useful information on that topic.

 

[Spikespiegel]

Finally some love for Greywater.

 

[AerioOndos]

I suggest easing off on the mangroves until it’s definitely coastal marsh and instead doing lots of alder, willow, etc in the inland areas

 

[Emoticone11]

Just a heads up that there's been talk of redoing the terraforming of the Neck for a while now, before Carc unfortunately went AWOL (he made a biome map at some point but I can't seem to find it now). But regardless, the terraforming of the Neck as a whole is not satisfactory, and there's still been a bit of debate about which biomes should be where. So this project might be a bit high-risk in that regard.

 

[SerLoras]

Just a heads up that there's been talk of redoing the terraforming of the Neck for a while now, before Carc unfortunately went AWOL (he made a biome map at some point but I can't seem to find it now). But regardless, the terraforming of the Neck as a whole is not satisfactory, and there's still been a bit of debate about which biomes should be where. So this project might be a bit high-risk in that regard.

I am all for re-terraforming the Neck, but I definitely would prefer not to do that work myself. Ideally, I could work with Carc or whoever is doing the re-terraform on the placement of the Greywater and its hamlets. IMO, it makes the much more sense to plan Greywater and the Neck re-terraform together at the same time rather than do one before the other.

 

[thecoddfish]

I don't think I agree with your argument re: Greywater Watch being in a fixed position. The evidence that we have from GRRM himself (via the books) points towards Greywater Watch being a moving castle, while your own counterargument is based on speculation and loose interpretations of canon rather than any objective evidence. Balancing that out, I think it would be unwise to contradict clear canon evidence in favour of a contradictory standpoint on the basis of a) subjective interpretation and grasping inferences, and b) the "impractical and aesthetically unappealing" nature of a moving castle (which is your opinion, not necessarily one shared by others).

 

[SerLoras]

I don't think I agree with your argument re: Greywater Watch being in a fixed position. The evidence that we have from GRRM himself (via the books) points towards Greywater Watch being a moving castle, while your own counterargument is based on speculation and loose interpretations of canon rather than any objective evidence. Balancing that out, I think it would be unwise to contradict clear canon evidence in favour of a contradictory standpoint on the basis of a) subjective interpretation and grasping inferences, and b) the "impractical and aesthetically unappealing" nature of a moving castle (which is your opinion, not necessarily one shared by others).

The canon evidence isn't clear though. All we have are second hand stories that it moves. There is no indication of what it looks like, how it moves, or why it moves.

I have yet to hear a plausible theory for how anything worthy of being called a "castle" could move around in the environment of the Neck.
There is clear evidence from the canon that even fairly modest sized longships cannot effectively move through the Neck. A floating vessel of any substantial size would be nearly impossible to move in that environment, and even if it were possible there is no benefit to doing so.

What you have said also doesn't address the magical angle. The only semi-plausible theory for something akin to movement is magical concealment. Concealing the castle magically would give the appearance of movement to those trying to find it. There is just as much "evidence from GRRM himself (via the books)" that points towards the crannogmen practicing magic as there is of the castle moving. In fact the magic is actually explained in much more detail than the claim that the castle moves. We get specifics about where the magic came from and the kinds of things they can accomplish with magic, including the very peculiar mention of using magic to make "castles appear and disappear."

If we are weighing evidence, on one side there is merely the vague and extraordinary claim that the castle moves, with nothing to back it up. On the other side are mountains of reasons why it would be impractical and probably impossible for it to move, and no counter-argument (other than magical concealment) to explain how it might be possible.

 

[AerioOndos]

I agree with Loras on this one. It would suit the mythos of the crannogmen to perpetuate the idea that their castle is unplottable and can move if need be. It would be easier for the crannogmen to utilise the changing environment and block off certain areas and passages to divert coming people rather than move an entire 'castle' through a carr landscape. If Greywater was in an area of connected lakes where the waterways became larger then yes, I would agree with a moving castle but there is nothing to confirm or deny it.
The idea of using magic to make the castle appear and disappear sounds like using principles of camoflage and concealment to me. Shape, Silhouette, movement, texture, shadow etc.

I think the idea of a moving castle would be more along the lines of disguising the actual castle and making another area, near particularly dangerous quicksands appear like a castle (have a small fire going, make an area of a tree look like a watch tower). Hence how to make castles 'appear' (the appearance being made) and 'disappear' concealing the structure. I also think that the Frey's never did get close to Greywater and eventually saw a mock castle in the distance, prepared to go to it later or attempted to make an assault but it was dismantled in the night and set up somewhere else.

 

[AerioOndos]

I always thought of Greywater Watch being a wooden castle like a Gord/burgwall. Now I think on it there is a greater possibility that other settlements of the neck, perhaps more in the border regions, will have such structures.

Is there additional meaning behind the name Greywater? like some kind of phenomenon like a blackwater event that may indicate details on whether or not the water is moving or not

 

[Ben]

How does Greywater Watch keep moving? - Quora

 

[otty]

The canon evidence isn't clear though. All we have are second hand stories that it moves. There is no indication of what it looks like, how it moves, or why it moves.

I have yet to hear a plausible theory for how anything worthy of being called a "castle" could move around in the environment of the Neck.
There is clear evidence from the canon that even fairly modest sized longships cannot effectively move through the Neck. A floating vessel of any substantial size would be nearly impossible to move in that environment, and even if it were possible there is no benefit to doing so.

What you have said also doesn't address the magical angle. The only semi-plausible theory for something akin to movement is magical concealment. Concealing the castle magically would give the appearance of movement to those trying to find it. There is just as much "evidence from GRRM himself (via the books)" that points towards the crannogmen practicing magic as there is of the castle moving. In fact the magic is actually explained in much more detail than the claim that the castle moves. We get specifics about where the magic came from and the kinds of things they can accomplish with magic, including the very peculiar mention of using magic to make "castles appear and disappear."

If we are weighing evidence, on one side there is merely the vague and extraordinary claim that the castle moves, with nothing to back it up. On the other side are mountains of reasons why it would be impractical and probably impossible for it to move, and no counter-argument (other than magical concealment) to explain how it might be possible.

I still disagree. In terms of the legends of GWW its always been "the moving castle". It would be a significant disappointment to have it not move. Take the opportunity to make this project something unique and special, with an exuse to do so. I still like the idea of the boats from the previous project lead. Despite what any other disconnected canon there is of the project, what fans know it for is that it's the home of House Reed and that supposedly migrates. Take half of its legend and you're doing the project a disservice.

It is best to phrase it like this.
Suppose Atlantis is in the world of Game of Thrones. It's spoken and taled to be a sunken city-island said to house merpeople. The city is supposedly ruined but still functions properly, it's far east, off from the shores of Dorne. However, there are a few comments claiming they have the power to hide their island entirely, to make it disappear.

You'd be coming in and saying "it's not sunken" and "it's not ruined." Yet that is half the fun, the point, and the story. You pull that legend away from it and you've ruined the fantasy.

Look into the Uros of Lake Titicaca, the Phumdis of Loktak Lake. I also believe the terra should shift to look more like the marshes in florida. This would make it feasible that ships would struggle to pass, but plausible that the various islands could move about slowly. The Phumdis inspiration would also be accurate as they could be make made islands used for the purpose of fishing.
Either way, the "magic" seems like a shortcut rather than finding a reasonable excuse to have the legends be true.

All said;

I would also revise the palette of the castle entirely. It is falling under the salt and pepper appearance with the black basalt.

 

[SerLoras]

How does Greywater Watch keep moving? - Quora

Crannogs are not boats. They are made by stacking rocks, timber, etc. on the lake bed. They aren't free floating and they don't move around. That floating village also isn't built on crannogs, and as far as I can tell, it stays in one place and does not move around.

It's likely that the swampland does naturally shift and change, but this is likely to be gradual deposit and erosion that superficially changes the shape of the land. It wouldn't move a large structure or collection of structures a significant distance from point A to point B.

 

[SerLoras]

I still disagree. In terms of the legends of GWW its always been "the moving castle". It would be a significant disappointment to have it not move. Take the opportunity to make this project something unique and special, with an exuse to do so. I still like the idea of the boats from the previous project lead. Despite what any other disconnected canon there is of the project, what fans know it for is that it's the home of House Reed and that supposedly migrates. Take half of its legend and you're doing the project a disservice.

It is best to phrase it like this.
Suppose Atlantis is in the world of Game of Thrones. It's spoken and taled to be a sunken city-island said to house merpeople. The city is supposedly ruined but still functions properly, it's far east, off from the shores of Dorne. However, there are a few comments claiming they have the power to hide their island entirely, to make it disappear.

You'd be coming in and saying "it's not sunken" and "it's not ruined." Yet that is half the fun, the point, and the story. You pull that legend of it away from it and you've ruined the fantasy.

Look into the Uros of Lake Titicaca, the Phumdis of Loktak Lake. I also believe the terra should shift to look more like the marshes in florida. This would make it feasible that ships would struggle to pass, but plausible that the various islands could move about slowly. The Phumdis inspiration would also be accurate as they could be make made islands used for the purpose of fishing.
Either way, the "magic" seems like a shortcut rather than finding a reasonable excuse to have the legends be true.

All said;

I would also revise the palette of the castle entirely. It is falling under the salt and pepper appearance with the black basalt.

Thanks Ott, I really like those inspiration suggestions. Still, just because something works in a large open lake, doesn't mean it will work in narrow obstructed channels. Also, I do like the idea of a shifting swamp, but I don't think the normal changing of land in a swamp would produce the type of place to place movement and migration that fans know Greywater Watch for.

Additionally, I don't really understand how the magic is a shortcut here. In this specific case, magic is a perfectly reasonable explanation. We know there is real magic in Westeros. We know there is real magic than can change the appearance of an object. There are three seperate references in the book that explicitly suggest the crannogmen know and use magic they learned from the Children of the Forest. That is actually the exact same number of times the ledgend of Greywater Watch moving is mentioned in the books. I would argue that the notion of crannogmen magic is just as substantial a part of the Greywater mythos (and it is even more thoroughly explained) as the moving castle legend.

 

[AerioOndos]

I greatly disagree with making large areas of the Neck like the Florida Marshes. perhaps some areas but not near the causeway
-The broad open expanses might work in some areas but are all to easily accessible by longship. A drakr would not be hindered much by reeds. such as in florida.
-The books seem to describe a carr landscape with partly submerged trees.

Now I may be thinking of a different thing (clear chanels surrounded by reeds) to what you mean Otty, if so apologies.

What, however, could use that inspiration is the entrance that is used to get into the neck from the west, beyond the cape of eagles. There the floridan saltmarsh could definitely be used because longships can make their way in.

I remember something about the causeway twisting and turning. Am I wrong? or am I just thinking that such a road would be going over the high points rather than in a straight line

 

[otty]

But those hard to move

Thanks Ott, I really like those inspiration suggestions. Still, just because something works in a large open lake, doesn't mean it will work in narrow obstructed channels. Also, I do like the idea of a shifting swamp, but I don't think the normal changing of land in a swamp would produce the type of place to place movement and migration that fans know Greywater Watch for.

Additionally, I don't really understand how the magic is a shortcut here. In this specific case, magic is a perfectly reasonable explanation. We know there is real magic in Westeros. We know there is real magic than can change the appearance of an object. There are three seperate references in the book that explicitly suggest the crannogmen know and use magic they learned from the Children of the Forest. That is actually the exact same number of times the legend of Greywater Watch moving is mentioned in the books. I would argue that the notion of crannogmen magic is just as substantial a part of the Greywater mythos (and it is even more thoroughly explained) as the moving castle legend.

The islands would create the channels, but the channels can move and migrate around. They could clog a spot or area making it impossible to navigate by vessel. And digging for more research:

The Mesopotamian Venice: The Lost Floating Homes of Iraq

The inspiring story of Marsh Arabs and their amazing sustainable floating homes.

www.zmescience.com

These people live in the Arab Marshs. Marshes and Swamps often are seen together in their water-based environment. They are often seen together as you do in Florida. I only suggest Florida as it's known for it's combination of both marshes and swampland. Narrow channels exist in marshes aswell.

I proposed lake Titicaca as it's an iconic example of such settlements. The Phumdi were to represent a potential way you could research man-made peats as I knew about them from a science class in HS.
What I'm really trying to do here for with the locations isn't to contradict your point or prove that it is real but to giver you real-life inspiration to start the transition into a moving-castle project. To give it more grounding and reason before knocking the idea out entirely and saying its not feasible.

But the overarching legend is that it moves. When I think of the location the first thing I remember is that it moves. So, even if you want to argue its not possible, then use the magic of the children to give it an excuse to move rather than to build a stagnant castle.

 

[otty]

I greatly disagree with making large areas of the Neck like the Florida Marshes. perhaps some areas but not near the causeway
-The broad open expanses might work in some areas but are all to easily accessible by longship. A drakr would not be hindered much by reeds. such as in florida.
-The books seem to describe a carr landscape with partly submerged trees.

Now I may be thinking of a different thing (clear chanels surrounded by reeds) to what you mean Otty, if so apologies.

What, however, could use that inspiration is the entrance that is used to get into the neck from the west, beyond the cape of eagles. There the floridan saltmarsh could definitely be used because longships can make their way in.

I remember something about the causeway twisting and turning. Am I wrong? or am I just thinking that such a road would be going over the high points rather than in a straight line

You misunderstand. I meant transition as in to have areas that transition into marshes so that such a region is not just pure swamp. Which would be unlikely anyway to have such large regions of that environment.

Plus, I'm not using this as a valid argument and more of a tease but, you know the name is House REED.

 

[thecoddfish]

The canon evidence isn't clear though. All we have are second hand stories that it moves. There is no indication of what it looks like, how it moves, or why it moves.

Second hand stories of movement are better than no evidence pointing towards it being a stationary, stone-based structure. Your entire argument rests on the assumption that every piece of evidence that we have regarding Greywater Watch is totally incorrect. I can understand that it is a difficult concept to work with, but at the end of the day canon (no matter how unbelievable - this is a fantasy series after all) has to trump our own interpretations. You raise a good point with your quote regarding the ability to make castles "appear and disappear" (ASoS, Bran II), but this could equally (if not more logically) be interpreted as the ability to transport GWW from one location to another, rather than a case of "magical concealment".

Ot also has a great point about the implications for guests and our wider viewing community. We know nothing about GWW other than that it is supposedly a moving castle - how could we decide to rob it of its one defining characteristic in good faith?

 

[_Simbaa]

I agree with codd on this

 

[SeapunkPeaches]

I think the castle should look more like pictures 2 and 3 of your inspiration artworks. This is a chance to do something unique on the server and I feel like a stone keep is both a bit underwhelming and unlikely solution.

 

[AerioOndos]

Agreeing with Where. We need more wooden and non-conventional keeps
I see your point Otty. I think I’m just really attached to the idea of having hydrosere processes evident and having smaller channels overhung by trees was a way of making the area impassable