Withdrawn Immersion Build Application - The ruined seat of House Justman - by Antony_Justman

[Antony]

Hello, and this is my app for the castle of House Justman.

You, may of course, wonder , why, this is an immersion build, and not a canon project.
Well the answer is simple, all lands once held, directly by the house, belong now to the Houses, Blackwood and Bracken, so, they should be done, by the people, who will redo those projects. This concerns only the ruin of their second seat, which will also be, part, of the disputed lands, between the Houses, now belonging to House Blackwood.

Spoiler: Canon, for the disputed lands

The Teats, Battle Valley, and the village of Blackbuckle are part of the disputed land. There have been numerous peaces between the Blackwoods and Brackens, many sealed by marriage, but the feud always restarts." it is pointed here, the existence of the disputed lands of between the Houses, with the naming of a few settlements in them. We, also get the names of all the settlements and locations in the disputed lands, because those locations, are asked by Lord Jonos Bracken to be given to him by the Blackwoods, in A Dance With Dragons, and among those, the before mentioned locations are named too: "With the surrender of Riverrun, Raventree remains the last Stark loyalist stronghold. Jaime Lannister successfully negotiates the surrender of Raventree with Tytos and takes Hoster Blackwood as a hostage. Jonos Bracken desires to gain the east bank of the Widow's Wash, from Crossbow Ridge to Rutting Meadow, Grindcorn Mill, Lord's Mill, Muddy Hall, the Ravishment, Battle Valley, Oldforge, Buckle, Blackbuckle, Cairns, Claypool, Mudgrave, Waspwood, Lorgen's Wood, Greenhill, Missy's Teats, and Honeytree. However, Tytos only agrees to transfer Woodhedge, Crossbow Ridge, Buckle, Lord's Mill, and Honeytree.". Also among those locations, we can find the naming of a few ruins, which are: Woodhedge, Muddy Hall and Oldforge, why you may ask, Lord Jonos, might have asked for this ruins, is, because they have importance to both Houses, either, strategic, or historical importance, which also suggests, that might have been battered too by war, but surely not raised to the ground, because if so, they wouldn't been asked for.

Spoiler: Reasoning for the placement

Having in mind the above canon, information, regarding the region, we need only ask ourselves, why, would after all the Kings of House Justman raised their castle in that area? Because, as it is quite obvious, those lands lie between the lands of the two rival Houses, and thus, the Justmans would have surely, chosen the area for their seat, as King Benedict I, was a bastard of both Houses, and so, to state that, he choose this region. But of course, there are other clues, for that too. As it is quite common in the Riverlands for all Houses, they tend to show on which Fork, their seat lies on, or that their seat is on the Trident, by having the colours of all three of the Forks. In the case of House Justman, we have the colour blue, on the rim around their sigil, which indicates, their House is on the Blue fork. Last reason for that placement, is with Benedict being a bastard son of both Houses, he most likely chose that region, because he most likely knew it well, as he would have pasted time there, hunting and roaming around, as a boy, and later a knight. And that is why, it will be here, at this spot I marked

Sorry for the handwriting, I made the map hastily

Spoiler: Plans

The castle will sit on a small hill, near by the shores of the blue fork, and close to the locations, Greenhill, Woodhedge, and Muddy Hall, whose name, might indicate, an old castle probably, with a big main Hall. So in my opinion, what better else place, to hold the name Muddy Hall, than the ancient castle of House Justman, the Royal seat of the Riverlands for 300 years, which would definitely have a large, Great Hall, fitting for kings. Plus, the location of Muddy hall, currently features no ruin, so this Ruin, could be its ruin.
Although, the name Muddy Hall, isn't that much fitting of a Royal Seat, It would be most likely, that that name, was given later on by the small folk, after the fall of the House, because of the mud, that would be there, after heavy rainfall, with its original name, being mentioned in only a few chronicles, and thus being almost entirely forgotten, which, for me, would be, Fairchester, with fair- meaning just, and -chester, coming from the roman Castrum, which means military camp.

Generally, the ruins survive in a perilous, condition, with only a few parts somewhat surviving, which are, the ancient sept, along with the old convent, only the sept survives, unsaved, as for the convent, the wooden rafters, holding the black slate roofs and its floors, have long collapsed, leaving only small parts of its walls, the ancient gatehouse, which is largely ruined, but not yet, fallen over, and the old dungeon tower, which is now used, as a Holdfast, and first line of defence, in case of an attack from the lands of House Bracken, as the only road, leading from Stone Hedge to Raventree, passes right underneath the castle's walls, making an important, strategic and historic location nonetheless for both Houses.
Along the recked, and raised ruins of its ancient walls and towers, there are small watch posts, from which the Blackwood soldiers watch for any kind of threats, especially now, when the Mountain is roaming free, in the region, and with a lot of towns, holdfasts, castles, and villages, having burned by him, including, the Mummer's Ford, Sherrer, Wendish Town and even Stone Hedge it self.

I don't think there is much to discuss about the layout, as almost all parts of the castle have been recked to shit, and dismantled from time to time, to repair, fortifications and make houses, although that has not happened there, for some time. The only thing that is important in my opinion, is that it is build on a small Hill, and is surrounded, by an old now, dried and shallow moat, which is actually quite muddy, and a source of malaria to the locals, because it quite boggy, from all the rain, in the region, although now in summer, it hasn't rained for some time, so its quite dried up, and not that boggy and muddy, although, with fall, coming closer, some rain starts pouring down again.

As for the holdfast, its currently occupied, by a small garrison of Blackwood men, and a grounds keeper, some old knight. It is also in a perilous state.

Inspiration, was mostly drawn by several castles, in Northumberland: Alnwick Castle, and Dunstanburgh Castle.

Spoiler: Now some pics of the tests

All tests can be found in /warp antony2 on the glass base.
I hope those information are sufficient

Edit: somehow the canon part is cut in half, I don't know why.

 

[DutchGuard]

Hi Antony, just a few things:
- Your app doesn't make it clear how badly ruined it is. Could you clarify?
- The context in which Muddy Hall is mentioned makes it sound like it's a trifle being fought over, which characterises the relationship between the Brackens and Blackwoods. It would be more fitting to the narrative if Muddy Hall was as pathetic and useless as it sounds, and it was just some mud heap the Brackens and Blackwoods were fighting over. I don't think it's still a substantial, let alone functional castle.
- House Justman is currently assigned to Merrydown Dell.
- You are building something in an area that is earmarked for a redo, and it would be unfair to whoever applied to redo that area if they had to keep your build if it interfered with their plans. I think it should be an all-or-nothing "Blackwood/Bracken disputed lands" project. Breaking it off into smaller pieces would result in a disjointed area.
- By making this an immersion build you are exempting yourself (it seems) from having to pay any attention to the surrounding lands, leaving that for whoever has to redo the larger area later down the line.

I think there is definitely somewhere in the Riverlands for the ruined seat of House Justman, but I would wait until there was some sort of master plan drawn up for the area, of which I believe there are several in progress.

 

[Antony]

Dutch, let me answer you, Merry down dell, isnt a good location for Justman, after all all those placings were made with little care for Canon, and logic, but rather luck.

We are talking of a Royal House here, who ruled the Riverlands for 300 year, a bastard of blackwood and bracken, which makes absolute sense that it would be in the disputed lands, a land that both houses lay claim on, because once belonged to House Justman, and with both houses, being their closest relation, they would undoubtedly claim dominion over them. Also near by, lies the town of fairmarket, and as Stoop seems to think too, has undoubtedly relation with them too, and is most likely to have been their first seat, and possibly founded by them. As of course Fair means Just, and there you have it Justman. Plus the House, wasn't like the other normal Houses, ruling from their own, lands, and expanding, they didn't have any lands, at all. Benedict I Justman, was nothing more, than a bastard knight, who only crowned himself king, after conquering all the rival petty kings for 30 years, so why would he choose, some backwater, shitty place for his seat, when his whole kingdom spanned from the neck to Maidenpool. So it would make more sense to me, to raise, his seat closer to both the lands of the Houses, of his Parents, and also on a strategic location, and a place he would have known well, since childhood, and also a beatufull location as the blue fork, is undoubtably the most beautiful fork of the Three, with serene, calm and clear blue waters which give it its name, after all, it isn't luck that other ancient Houses of Kings ruled from its banks, like the Mudd's at Oldstones, and the Fishers of Misty Isle. (and let us all not forget, that Benedict's son, Benedict the II expanded his lands to DD and Rosby and the Blackwater Rush, so by living in a such a shitty backwater, with no direct access, to the feature that gives his vast Kingdom, wealth and power, the Rivers he would have been a fool. Also there isn't much space to raise a proper castle there, and I don't think that the Kings of the Trident would want to look weak, in front of their vassals and especially the Darklyns and their vast Dunfort. A house which they conquered.) So I am so sorry if I am rude to you dutch, but I must say, that I disagree, with all your feedback.

As for any plans of a redo, I have talked to possible people, who have their eyes on the place, they didn't seem to have a problem.

As for the condition of the ruins, I think I made it clear, largely levelled by the local smallfolk and lords, for masonry, to repair and built their houses, castles and fortifications. The palace is at a same condition, so that much a functioning castle, but more like a old hill, surrounded, by an old dried up moat, with a lot of ruins on top. After all, the parts that I have made are the parts that have survived, the rest, is levelled to at most foundation level, or non existent any more, for reference, for what the palace, and most of the ruins look now, check Fotheringhay castle, at Northamptonshire, England

Merrydown dell, is the least relevant location tbh, a seat of kings rulling a vast kingdom for 300 years, located at a shitty little irrelevant burned village, in the middle of nowhere. It does indeed seem, that Waz, just placed those warps in chance, as there is no mentioned seat for House Justman.

Edit:
As for the name Muddy Hall, the situation is similar to Oldstones of House Mudd, the name of the castle, has been forgotten completely, and has been called goldstones by the small folk, same case here. With the seat of such an important House, being not known, we might as well assume, that its name, has been forgotten at least by the many, named only in a few old chronicles, dating from that age, and after the many years following the fall of the House, the name was forgotten, same to Oldstones.

 

[Ric]

Hey Ant. I was reading your reasoning for the placement and I remembered a discussion from another thread concerning the Blackwood Vale. You can see it in this post and the following (ignore the timeline discussion, my point is on the Blackwood location only):

Where on the timeline is our server?

Okay, asking the big question that hasn't been answered. When exactly is our server? Prompted by a discussion with regards to the state of Maidenpool, I had a deep dive into the canon surrounding its events as compared to what we have built on the server. Here is what it seems like we have...

forum.westeroscraft.com

I don't think anything there is set on stone and for sure more discussion over it will happen, but I think it's relevant to consider it for your immersion as the location of the Blackwood lands seems important in this particular case.

 

[Antony]

I dont see any problem, I am indeed in the disputed lands, as I after all stated, according to Stoop's plan too.

Mostly the fact, that Kevan and Tywin passed from there on the way to the crossroads, so I will see, that the whatever defences were there, look as if they have been breached.

 

[DutchGuard]

I quite agree that Merrydown Dell is not a suitable location for Justman, I don't know the reasoning it was assigned to that location by wazgamer but I wanted you to address it all the same.
I'm very pleased you have chosen Fotheringhay Castle as inspiration for your ruins.
For reference, this is what it looks like:



Could you possibly make a model or draw a map of the castle in a ruined state? Your model atm is of an un-ruined castle I think.

 

[Veggie]

Your images above suggest at substantial ruins. As the Justman's kingdom was thousands of years ago in our universe, I'd prefer to see merely the suggestion of a castle, with potentially substantial remaining earthworks.

The image Dutch provided above would be something interesting to pursue.

See also Old Sarum, once a substantial settlement in the UK, now essentially levelled.

As for any plans of a redo, I have talked to possible people, who have their eyes on the place, they didn't seem to have a problem.

This would become a problem, as Dutch alludes to above. Both the major surrounding castles are I believe earmarked for redo due to canon issues, it would be unfair both to you, and whomever applies for these projects if they had to build around this.

 

[Antony]

Your images above suggest at substantial ruins. As the Justman's kingdom was thousands of years ago in our universe, I'd prefer to see merely the suggestion of a castle, with potentially substantial remaining earthworks

I wouldn't say, that much of a substantial ruin, with only the gatehouse, some pieces of wall, and a tower surviving.
Also, I would like to add the fact, that it is quite unlikely, for a fortress such importance to be abandoned right after the death of the House, 1000 years ago more or less. But due to its strategic location and size, it would have been the prime target for all the newly made petty "river" kings of the area. who would want to claim the castle, not just as a base for the region, but also as a sign of legitimacy, that they are indeed the kings because they are sitting on King Bernarr's II throne. the two prime candidates, for that would be of course, the nearby Blackwoods and Brackens, who in that time were River kings, seeking claim to the Riverlands. So in that period, the castle would change hands quite a lot, between those two main families. Its use would start to diminish, right after King Torrence I Teague took, the throne, and peace, finally came, as there would be, no more need for the fortress.

During the days, of the Teagues, (which I would say, should be a period of 200-300 years, because the Teagues, weren't really liked, as we know that the 4th Teague king was riding during his whole reign putting down one rebellion after another) the dismantling of parts of the castles would start, by the locals, for masonry and timber. Then after the battle of the 6 Kings, its use, would start again, because the rivalry between Blackwoods and Brackens would have been fired up again, with both sides, fighting for it, and using whatever remained of it, as a "way castle" for the road between the two Houses.

After all, Westeros isn't that much realistic tbh, for example we can see, ruins older than even that one to survive in a much better condition, like Oldstones, which was said to be somewhat raised, but some its remaining stones, were used later on by the small folk, and also there are quite a few remains there among them, a whole statue covered in rose bushes, which imo would be the first part, the looters would destroy...

But I do indeed plan for the Palace to be in a similar condition with old Sarum, and Fotheringhay, but a bit less ruined, with only remains, the earthworks and small pieces of foundations and walls. But the rest, the fortified part, the walls and towers, are less likely, to have been demolished completely, for the reasons above mentioned, because it stands on top of the road. Again, I must state, that the only surviving parts of them, are the Gatehouse, earthworks, some foundations of the walls, and small parts of the walls, and the Dungeon tower to the south east, which is used currently as a hf, outpost by the Blackwoods.

But, as it is indeed a problem, I will drop it for now, to do it once more when the area is redone.
(by me hehe, imma make dis a canon project soon)