Flea Bottom Planning and General Style Discussion

RavishMeRed

Emissary
Pronouns
he/him
Hello everyone!

I wanted to create a thread where we could discuss and underlining for style and planning of the Flea Bottom districts in the Kings Landing update.
Due to the properties of Flea Bottom, I felt a general discussion should take place upon how the update should go and what would be the best course of action. I felt this would be a nice place to share comments, concerns, suggestions and tests for a Flea Bottom style.

The current districts that make up Flea bottom and it's sub-outskirts are: 14A, 14B (Street of Flour), 16C, and half of of 16B. Located on the other side of the main road leading from the Dragonsquare to the Iron Gate are districts 23A, 23B (currently led by JMC), and 23C. These three districts, in my opinion, could be left open to interpretation on whether or not it is a true part of Flea Bottom.

I have done some research on real world slums that I feel could be a great asset to the update. Four things I think we should consider when updating this area of Kings Landing are the following:
1. Location in the city
2: Land type
3. Road structure
4. Habitat

Based on these four criteria points, and canon from ASOIAF, we can deduce that
1. Flea bottom is located at the foot of Rhaenys's Hill
2. The land is 'congealed' with mud and human excrement
3. Due to rapid expansion in a time period of 300 years, there is one main road stretching from the city center to the eastern gate
4. The area is lawless and lacks basic structure.

Some real world examples that follow this criteria similar to Flea Bottom are:

Orangi Town, Karachi, Pakistan
Tondo, Manila, Philippines
Dharavi, Mumbai

Please feel free to respond, discuss, share thoughts of this process. I feel a general discussion is needed for this area to ensure that a well-liked style is created.

Thanks, Ravish
 

EStoop

Lord Steward of Oldtown, Knight of Fairmarket
Slums as we know them today, with individualistic shacks and shanties, were fairly rare in medieval European cities, which would more often than not house their poor in the cellars or upper floors of middle class houses. Some neighbourhoods were distinctively poorer than others though.

I'd argue the houses in Flea Bottom aren't shacks and huts but are more or less similar to the rest of the houses in Kingslanding, the major difference being that they are much more rundown and make use of cheaper materials (such as wood only). The interiors would be divided into multiple apartments, likely to be a single room, which would house a family of roughly 6-8 people.
 

DutchGuard

Bloodmage
Pronouns
he/him
Slums as we know them today, with individualistic shacks and shanties, were fairly rare in medieval European cities, which would more often than not house their poor in the cellars or upper floors of middle class houses. Some neighbourhoods were distinctively poorer than others though.

I'd argue the houses in Flea Bottom aren't shacks and huts but are more or less similar to the rest of the houses in Kingslanding, the major difference being that they are much more rundown and make use of cheaper materials (such as wood only). The interiors would be divided into multiple apartments, likely to be a single room, which would house a family of roughly 6-8 people.
Agreed. To put it plainly it's more of a difference in density rather than a difference in style.
 

RavishMeRed

Emissary
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he/him
Here I have a current layout of all the roads, alleys, pathways of Flea Bottom. Red marks entrances into the sewers. Purple marks entrances into the underground (via road ONLY).

The large red road on the west end is a canon road that starts from Street of Silk, runs through Flea Bottom, and up Aegon's High Hill.

Thanks, Ravish
 

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RavishMeRed

Emissary
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Hello Everyone, back with another test.


For this test, I wanted to apply a difference between new infrastructure and old infrastructure in the flea bottom area. As seen from the previous post, the roads of flea bottom are very chaotic and flow organically. What we see running from the Dragonsquare to the Iron Gate is a large way that carved through the old layout of Flea Bottom essentially cutting it in half (KL 23b and KL14a & b). The difference in 'style being the houses erected along the long road would be newer in the sense we would see them today. These plots would run parallel with the main way.

What you can see in the test images is a 'wall' of houses creating a buffer between old and new infrastructure. I'm really pleased with this because this creates the illusion of separation. Going inside the old infrastructure you can see the curving roads that make up Flea Bottom. The materials and pallets I use differ from pervious tests because, after doing research and consideration from other builders, what we know of in medieval times is that 'slums' would consist of cheaper materials and rundown/degrading houses rather than shacks and huts as previously argued.

I also included in the screenshots a road test. We know that under Jaehaerys' rule the streets were cobbled but only in places where possible. I think the street pallet for this area should include some cobble but not be the predominant material used as we know in canon the streets are 'congealed with mud and excrement'.

If you want to check out this test in game, it is located at /warp ravish in the center of my plot.

Thanks again, hoping to see your comments and feedback,
RavishMeRed
 

Scubooty

Printmaker
Hello Everyone, back with another test.


For this test, I wanted to apply a difference between new infrastructure and old infrastructure in the flea bottom area. As seen from the previous post, the roads of flea bottom are very chaotic and flow organically. What we see running from the Dragonsquare to the Iron Gate is a large way that carved through the old layout of Flea Bottom essentially cutting it in half (KL 23b and KL14a & b). The difference in 'style being the houses erected along the long road would be newer in the sense we would see them today. These plots would run parallel with the main way.

What you can see in the test images is a 'wall' of houses creating a buffer between old and new infrastructure. I'm really pleased with this because this creates the illusion of separation. Going inside the old infrastructure you can see the curving roads that make up Flea Bottom. The materials and pallets I use differ from pervious tests because, after doing research and consideration from other builders, what we know of in medieval times is that 'slums' would consist of cheaper materials and rundown/degrading houses rather than shacks and huts as previously argued.

I also included in the screenshots a road test. We know that under Jaehaerys' rule the streets were cobbled but only in places where possible. I think the street pallet for this area should include some cobble but not be the predominant material used as we know in canon the streets are 'congealed with mud and excrement'.

If you want to check out this test in game, it is located at /warp ravish in the center of my plot.

Thanks again, hoping to see your comments and feedback,
RavishMeRed
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RavishMeRed

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Hello Everyone!
I Present a final submission for a proposed Flea Bottom Style.


Plotting
I feel the overall plotting of Flea Bottom is very small, some houses being 5 blocks in width. Grouping houses together will allow things to be closely regulated and ensure the highest chance of cohesion.

The old infrastructure of Flea Bottom was removed with the building of a great way that runs from the Iron Gate to the Dragonsquare. The houses there would have been destroyed, thus the plots that run parallel with the new road should be 'new' in the sense they section off the area. I would like to give the illusion that inner Flea Bottom is being gated off by new houses placed along that route.

Pallets
I would like to propose the use of blocks seen in the images. Lower levels should not all consist of stone foundations. The style of Flea Bottom should come from the implementation of cheaper material being used. I'd suggest that about 40% of the houses consist of no stone foundations. Dark variants of the base material should be used to give the idea of weathering, rot, or warping of material. Daub and wattle patterns should be simple and 90% of the time not use the close-studded pattern.

Roofs
To keep things from looking monotonous, I created a breakdown of the usage of each roof material:
50% light thatch
20% dark thatch
15% jungle wood
10% northern wood
5% spruce wood
Similar to wall pallets, these sections should also include bits of weathering, loss, rot, etc. WITHOUT going overboard.

External Decorations
Roads and alleys should not be obstructed, and for the most are narrow already. Outside decorations should include sewer entrances, underground entrances, tables and sitting, work areas, homeless spots, etc.

Internal Decorations
Furniture should match the wealth/class of the house. Nothing fancy or costly. Use what the individuals would NEED to survive.

I'd like to address a proposal here for less kitchens. Currently, the houses in Flea Bottom have access to cooking in about every other house. In reality, around 50% of the population located in this area would have access to cooking. Others would seek out vendors or pot shops (soup kitchens).

Roads
The streets of Kings Landing were cobbled where they were needed. This area also receives a lot of foot traffic from its residents. Canon also states the streets are covered in mud. I followed a similar route that is being taken at Maidenpool but more mud wet substances.



I hope this proposal gives a set idea of what Flea Bottom has the potential of looking like.

If you would like to take a look at this test in person on the server, you can find it at /Warp Ravish on the NE section of my plot.

Thanks again, RavishMeRed
 

RavishMeRed

Emissary
Pronouns
he/him
Hello everyone!

Wanted to bump the thread to not only hear builder feedback but mod feedback as well. I feel the proposal has gotten a lot of positive feedback and would like to pursue things and possibly reopen my district 16c application following said proposal. I know a lot of people are busy, but would like to see what the next step is for this proposal.

For current tests you can find them at /Warp Ravish at the North-East section of my plot (left hand side to warp)

Thank you, Ravish
 

Peptic

Poet
Just curious, we know that there's a lot of crime in flea bottom right? but how many organized activities? Like will there be dog fighting-pits and stuff?
And a very minor idea I had, idk if it fits here but if you've played rdr2 there's a house somewhere where a father has locked his son inside the basement I think? Ik this is very specific but something like that would be pretty neat imo.
 
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lemonbear

Nymeria
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she/her
Just curious, we know that there's a lot of crime in flea bottom right? but how many organized activities? Like will there be dog fighting-pits and stuff?
And a very minor idea I had, idk if it fits here but if you've played rdr2 there's a house somewhere where a father has locked his son inside the basement I think? Ik this is very specific but something like that would be pretty neat imo.
Certainly would be more interesting that our typical 50 sex dungeons.
 

RavishMeRed

Emissary
Pronouns
he/him
Just curious, we know that there's a lot of crime in flea bottom right? but how many organized activities? Like will there be dog fighting-pits and stuff?
And a very minor idea I had, idk if it fits here but if you've played rdr2 there's a house somewhere where a father has locked his son inside the basement I think? Ik this is very specific but something like that would be pretty neat imo.
Currently, there are some places in Flea Bottom that feature this but to a small extent. I think the best idea for following professions and creating an immersive atmosphere in the way you are describing is: increase in crime, organized activates, macabre events, etc. the further away from the main roads you get. How dense the buildings are and connections with the underground city would also contribute to this.

I love that idea, Peptic, and would be happy to see it implemented into the district.
 

Jakethesnake8_8

Alchemist
Pronouns
he/him
I love your tests Rav, but imo flea bottom should reek of poverty in every aspect (something the road mix does successfully), but the houses are still kinda fancy. For examples, the piston top block, the 3 high windows, and lantern usage. Another thing is the daub patterns, where the crosshatch looks a bit fancy. Although I understand it varies the texture a bit. Another thing is the roof shape. They kinda follow a curved shape, and to emphasize poverty, I’d stick to just regular triangular 45 degree pitched roo es. I can’t really offer much in the way of advice on how to do this, but if it could feel more grimey that would be amazing.

- Jake from the plane
 

RavishMeRed

Emissary
Pronouns
he/him
I love your tests Rav, but imo flea bottom should reek of poverty in every aspect (something the road mix does successfully), but the houses are still kinda fancy. For examples, the piston top block, the 3 high windows, and lantern usage. Another thing is the daub patterns, where the crosshatch looks a bit fancy. Although I understand it varies the texture a bit. Another thing is the roof shape. They kinda follow a curved shape, and to emphasize poverty, I’d stick to just regular triangular 45 degree pitched roo es. I can’t really offer much in the way of advice on how to do this, but if it could feel more grimey that would be amazing.

- Jake from the plane
Hey Jake hope everything is going well on you plane ride!

I agree with your advice. It's important to note that the finalized district will consist of a lot of builder preference like roof extensions and wattle designs. Your comment is definitely something to keep in mind as since I was the solo creator of my tests alot of my personal preferences were implemented into it. Thank you <3
 

Scubooty

Printmaker
Hello Everyone!
I Present a final submission for a proposed Flea Bottom Style.


Plotting
I feel the overall plotting of Flea Bottom is very small, some houses being 5 blocks in width. Grouping houses together will allow things to be closely regulated and ensure the highest chance of cohesion.

The old infrastructure of Flea Bottom was removed with the building of a great way that runs from the Iron Gate to the Dragonsquare. The houses there would have been destroyed, thus the plots that run parallel with the new road should be 'new' in the sense they section off the area. I would like to give the illusion that inner Flea Bottom is being gated off by new houses placed along that route.

Pallets
I would like to propose the use of blocks seen in the images. Lower levels should not all consist of stone foundations. The style of Flea Bottom should come from the implementation of cheaper material being used. I'd suggest that about 40% of the houses consist of no stone foundations. Dark variants of the base material should be used to give the idea of weathering, rot, or warping of material. Daub and wattle patterns should be simple and 90% of the time not use the close-studded pattern.

Roofs
To keep things from looking monotonous, I created a breakdown of the usage of each roof material:
50% light thatch
20% dark thatch
15% jungle wood
10% northern wood
5% spruce wood
Similar to wall pallets, these sections should also include bits of weathering, loss, rot, etc. WITHOUT going overboard.

External Decorations
Roads and alleys should not be obstructed, and for the most are narrow already. Outside decorations should include sewer entrances, underground entrances, tables and sitting, work areas, homeless spots, etc.

Internal Decorations
Furniture should match the wealth/class of the house. Nothing fancy or costly. Use what the individuals would NEED to survive.

I'd like to address a proposal here for less kitchens. Currently, the houses in Flea Bottom have access to cooking in about every other house. In reality, around 50% of the population located in this area would have access to cooking. Others would seek out vendors or pot shops (soup kitchens).

Roads
The streets of Kings Landing were cobbled where they were needed. This area also receives a lot of foot traffic from its residents. Canon also states the streets are covered in mud. I followed a similar route that is being taken at Maidenpool but more mud wet substances.



I hope this proposal gives a set idea of what Flea Bottom has the potential of looking like.

If you would like to take a look at this test in person on the server, you can find it at /Warp Ravish on the NE section of my plot.

Thanks again, RavishMeRed
If any mods have feedback for this it would be great. I think with the large amount of applications recently we are going to need quite a few plots and opening up some more KL Districts would be a great way to solve this!
 

Emoticone11

The Dark Lord Sauron
Hey Rav,

As I understand it, you got some feedback on your newest submission in-game that you've already addressed. I personally think your newest test is pretty on-the-mark; the only thing remaining to be seen is how you plan to address the plotting in the hillier sections.

The main person I wanted to get input from before letting you start taking on the region was thecoddfish , since as you know he has a pretty vested interest in that area of KL. However, he came on the server the other night and we were able to talk about it for a while, and he seemed pretty happy with your most recent tests. With that, I'm comfortable moving forward with this part of KL. I think starting with the small district 16B as a way of "dipping your toes" before starting the rest of FB is a reasonable plan; that will help you figure out some of the plotting issues in practice, as well as hopefully drawing in more contributions from other people.

Let me know if you have any more questions.
 

RavishMeRed

Emissary
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he/him
Thank you, Emote, for being patient and for of course reaching out to Codd.

I will be re-opening my district app soon with the updated tests and plotting.

I would like to leave this thread open for newer tests regarding the hill issues as well as ideas to be expressed by the community as we continue forward.

Thanks again, RavishMeRed