Block Change Request: Dark Reach Palette

ContraBlonde

Alchemist
Request: Dark Reach Palette

Request Type:
General Addition

Try to describe all workarounds and associated issues that make it necessary to add this block in your eyes.
This would be like the stone/cobble/river cobble palette we have except it would have a warm/ undertone compared to the blue/cool undertone of the regular stone palette. This would give good palette variety to oldtown which would now have a darker gray instead of just beige, white and yellow stone palettes.


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ContraBlonde

Alchemist
Where would this dark grey stone come from in a region pretty much comprised by either yellow or pink-grey stone? Maybe make a map showing where this stone would be sourced from in geological terms?
IMO this palette could be imported from the stormlands-reach border. Or it can be used as a super aged and eroded version of the pink reach palette which would be really helpful in conveying the age of buildings in Oldtown
 

AerioOndos

Donkey Lord
Staff member
Pronouns
they/them
This would be awesome around the stormlands and really help with the transition between Dornish stone and Stormlands/grey stone palettes. This colour of stone looks somewhat similar to Eastern Islands in jungle biome and sedimentary rocks like sandstone or yellow shale which could be found along the southern bank of the Cockleswhent, and also could be good for the tuff, which considering basalt is probably found in the eastern Red Mountains (Blackhaven, Stonehelm) it wouldn't be a far stretch for that to be present.
If anyone can remember, there was a lot of testing of gradients for Lonmouth to try and work out what would work best for the valley, as it was the closest new stormlands project to Dorne at the time, and a palette block such as this would have definitely been the pick if we had it then.

Stone bricks like this could also be good between the Northmarch and the Westerlands, particularly as outlining blocks for stone arches, windows etc
 

Jakethesnake8_8

Firemage
Pronouns
he/him
My two cents here; I think we’re a little late in the game to introduce a new palette to one of the most complete regions of the map. A new palette for Dorne makes sense because it’s outdated, canon dictates otherwise and it was an incredibly underdeveloped region until recently. While I appreciate more variety would be nice, I think practically it could create its own set of issues.
 

AerioOndos

Donkey Lord
Staff member
Pronouns
they/them
I see your point and appreciate the thinking behind it, but this 'dark reach palette' has broader implications than just the Reach. It would give a 'dusky' stone brick that we could use throughout the Red Mountains, from the Torrentine to Grandview.
Additionally, I could see this as a neat tool for blending between grey stone/pink stone and Westerlands palette in the Riverlands (west of the Red Fork), which is another underdeveloped region.
While yes, it'd be interesting to give even more variety to OT palette, the implications of this block idea is much further reaching than just the Honeywine catchment.
 

Margaery_Tyrell

The Dark Lord Sauron
IMO this palette could be imported from the stormlands-reach border. Or it can be used as a super aged and eroded version of the pink reach palette which would be really helpful in conveying the age of buildings in Oldtown
Imported stone is a bit of a cop out, local materials would be the most heavily utilized material for stonework.

Like what would be the reason for importing stone hundreds of miles away in the stormlands near the border of a historically fierce rival, when the local stone work works perfectly fine.

Otherwise it would be used pretty exclusively in very very niche circumstances such as particularly wealthy noble or ecclesiastical settings rather than utilized in a vernacular architecture sense.

But either way I think making the textures would be a good way to better show what you have in mind.
 

EStoop

Knight of Fairmarket
I'd see more merit in reviewing the stone palettes we've already got rather than adding yet another one.
We've got a number of palettes that are quite similar, but also a number of palettes that are vastly different to anything else we've got. Rather than introducing more palettes we can change these outliers to bring them closer to the palettes that are already working really well. Giving each palette the same blocks to work with will expand their reach as well. Ideally, stone palettes should match with our terrainsets too.

We should focus on how blocks relate to others rather than keep filling in gaps with new blocks that are created by the last block introductions.
 

Jakethesnake8_8

Firemage
Pronouns
he/him
I'd see more merit in reviewing the stone palettes we've already got rather than adding yet another one.
We've got a number of palettes that are quite similar, but also a number of palettes that are vastly different to anything else we've got. Rather than introducing more palettes we can change these outliers to bring them closer to the palettes that are already working really well. Giving each palette the same blocks to work with will expand their reach as well. Ideally, stone palettes should match with our terrainsets too.

We should focus on how blocks relate to others rather than keep filling in gaps with new blocks that are created by the last block introductions.
I think at OT there are 4 potential palettes to be worked with.

Reach stone

Reach plaster

Oldtown stone

Oldtown plaster

I think that adding a darker, potentially cooler toned palette would be a little much for Oldtown, especially when we’ve got two colours and two variants of each colour.
 

ContraBlonde

Alchemist
I think at OT there are 4 potential palettes to be worked with.

Reach stone

Reach plaster

Oldtown stone

Oldtown plaster

I think that adding a darker, potentially cooler toned palette would be a little much for Oldtown, especially when we’ve got two colours and two variants of each colour.
I disagree, Oldtown is in desperate need of palette variety. Especially since the style is stone-centric we need more blocks to give variety, detail and character, which is lacking. Also it does not help that the buildings and streets are both similar colors so everything just ends up being beige. Oldtown only really has the Pink Reach, Oldtown and Arbor palettes, which are all similar to each other compared to KL which has a diverse palette of dun, stormlands, and grey stones.

Also the dark reach palette would not be a cooler toned palette like you suggest. If you had read the request you would know that, unless you don’t know what cool and warm undertones mean.
 
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Jakethesnake8_8

Firemage
Pronouns
he/him
I disagree, Oldtown is in desperate need of palette variety. Especially since the style is stone-centric we need more blocks to give variety, detail and character, which is lacking. Also it does not help that the buildings and streets are both similar colors so everything just ends up being beige. Oldtown only really has the Pink Reach, Oldtown and Arbor palettes, which are all similar to each other compared to KL which has a diverse palette of dun, stormlands, and grey stones.

Also the dark reach palette would not be a cooler toned palette like you suggest. If you had read the request you would know that, unless you don’t know what cool and warm undertones mean.
Perhaps I've misused my terms, but your inspiration images that you have linked are quite grungy grey colours, some of which do in fact appear to have cooler undertones.


Furthermore, upon closer inspection, a few of those inspiration images can be satisfactorily recreated using our existing palettes. You yourself provided a screenshot of Seri's work which wonderfully executes the palette seen in a few of your images.

https://imgur.com/g6ZlKWu

If we consider potential reasons for King's Landing's stone variety, we can surmise that the dun and orange bricks are made from clay, the grey palette is natural stone, and the Stormlands palette being some kind of local sandstone, perhaps from the moat digging or from nearby rivers. It may also be that Stormlands is used as an aesthetic choice to convey squalor and poverty in areas of deprivation as per canon.

Oldtown, however, has two types of stone, golden reach, and pink reach. The golden reach coming from the mountains in the east, south-east, and the pink reach from the north. Where would this third 'dark reach' palette come from? Oldtown is a relatively well kept city in comparison to King's Landing, which is notorious for its poverty and overall dirtiness. Therefore, a darker, grungy palette that could be justified as That is not to say Oldtown is *not* dirty, but that in general it is more looked after.

I want to reiterate the impracticality of adding an entire palette for a region that is largely completed. That's not to say I don't think we should have a variety of palettes, however, we must understand the implications of bringing this to fruition. If implemented, regions of the southern Reach would need to be retrofited with the palette to ensure regional consistency and demonstrate adequate transition of stone types. Moreover, it would provide grounds for redos in the northern Stormlands, which hold complete projects. The implementation of this palette could set a precedent for redoing builds because they are outdated by a new palette that we bring in.

Lastly, I'd like to remind you that this is an open forum thread, and there's no call for attitude over a simple misunderstanding.
 
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ContraBlonde

Alchemist
Perhaps I've misused my terms, but your inspiration images that you have linked are quite grungy grey colours, some of which do in fact appear to have cooler undertones.


Furthermore, upon closer inspection, a few of those inspiration images can be satisfactorily recreated using our existing palettes. You yourself provided a screenshot of Seri's work which wonderfully executes the palette seen in a few of your images.

https://imgur.com/g6ZlKWu

If we consider potential reasons for King's Landing's stone variety, we can surmise that the dun and orange bricks are made from clay, the grey palette is natural stone, and the Stormlands palette being some kind of local sandstone, perhaps from the moat digging or from nearby rivers. It may also be that Stormlands is used as an aesthetic choice to convey squalor and poverty in areas of deprivation as per canon.

Oldtown, however, has two types of stone, golden reach, and pink reach. The golden reach coming from the mountains in the east, south-east, and the pink reach from the north. Where would this third 'dark reach' palette come from? Oldtown is a relatively well kept city in comparison to King's Landing, which is notorious for its poverty and overall dirtiness. Therefore, a darker, grungy palette that could be justified as That is not to say Oldtown is *not* dirty, but that in general it is more looked after.

I want to reiterate the impracticality of adding an entire palette for a region that is largely completed. That's not to say I don't think we should have a variety of palettes, however, we must understand the implications of bringing this to fruition. If implemented, regions of the southern Reach would need to be retrofited with the palette to ensure regional consistency and demonstrate adequate transition of stone types. Moreover, it would provide grounds for redos in the northern Stormlands, which hold complete projects. The implementation of this palette could set a precedent for redoing builds because they are outdated by a new palette that we bring in.

Lastly, I'd like to remind you that this is an open forum thread, and there's no call for attitude over a simple misunderstanding.
I agree Seri has done a good job however we won’t be able to do that once we transfer to 1.18 due to biome changes. Also regarding the logistics of the stone, I think that it can be derived from the Grey Sandstone Terrainset used in the Stormlands Mountains as they are similar in color and tone. Also it can be used as an extension of the pink reach palette to convey heavy erosion as suggested by some of my reference pictures

 

EStoop

Knight of Fairmarket
I disagree, Oldtown is in desperate need of palette variety. Especially since the style is stone-centric we need more blocks to give variety, detail and character, which is lacking. Also it does not help that the buildings and streets are both similar colors so everything just ends up being beige. Oldtown only really has the Pink Reach, Oldtown and Arbor palettes, which are all similar to each other compared to KL which has a diverse palette of dun, stormlands, and grey stones.

Also the dark reach palette would not be a cooler toned palette like you suggest. If you had read the request you would know that, unless you don’t know what cool and warm undertones mean.
Having played a role in the development of the plans for Oldtown I am quite opposed to introduce another stone palette to Oldtown. There is already a varied palette to work with at the project, which has been meticulously put together in order to give builders enough options to add variety, detail and character without turning the city into a carnaval of textures like at messier cities such as Kingslanding. The majority of the buildings in the city would be build with local materials in quite a basic way and as a result will look samey, that's the realism of the average medieval house.

Rather than adding another very similar hue of stone to what we already have, a case could be made for adding blocks for fancier buildings such as guildhouses, estates and septs, which would likely be cladded in facing stone such as marble, breccia or limestone of which we have a very limited collection expecially for exterior use.

Another option would be to introduce (more) blocks specifically for streets and courtyards if streets and buildings melting together into a blob of stone is an issue, such as sett, flagstone, various forms of cobblestone, calade, calçada or brick, all in various possible patterns and colours.

Adding these solution will not only solve issues at Oldtown or the Reach and the surrounding area, but also in other projects all over the map where similar issues are present.
 

ContraBlonde

Alchemist
Having played a role in the development of the plans for Oldtown I am quite opposed to introduce another stone palette to Oldtown. There is already a varied palette to work with at the project, which has been meticulously put together in order to give builders enough options to add variety, detail and character without turning the city into a carnaval of textures like at messier cities such as Kingslanding. The majority of the buildings in the city would be build with local materials in quite a basic way and as a result will look samey, that's the realism of the average medieval house.

Rather than adding another very similar hue of stone to what we already have, a case could be made for adding blocks for fancier buildings such as guildhouses, estates and septs, which would likely be cladded in facing stone such as marble, breccia or limestone of which we have a very limited collection expecially for exterior use.

Another option would be to introduce (more) blocks specifically for streets and courtyards if streets and buildings melting together into a blob of stone is an issue, such as sett, flagstone, various forms of cobblestone, calade, calçada or brick, all in various possible patterns and colours.

Adding these solution will not only solve issues at Oldtown or the Reach and the surrounding area, but also in other projects all over the map where similar issues are present.
I disagree with your assessment that Kings Landing is a carnival of textures. While I understand your concern about too much variety, I think Oldtown is quite the opposite with only 2 palettes (Pink reach and Oldtown) which in addition to houses is used for infrastructure like roads, gates, retaining walls, walls, bridges, etc. meaning everything would just become a beige monolith. Also to your point about realism, yes it’s true they would use local materials, just because it’s realistic/ true to real life doesn’t make it automatically valid, Aesthetic value has value which fits the greatest city on the continent.

To your point about adding more ornate stone options I agree. I plan on making a request about expanding the masonry options of the Oldtown and reach palettes with ornate blocks and large bricks.
 

EStoop

Knight of Fairmarket
I disagree with your assessment that Kings Landing is a carnival of textures. While I understand your concern about too much variety, I think Oldtown is quite the opposite with only 2 palettes (Pink reach and Oldtown) which in addition to houses is used for infrastructure like roads, gates, retaining walls, walls, bridges, etc. meaning everything would just become a beige monolith. Also to your point about realism, yes it’s true they would use local materials, just because it’s realistic/ true to real life doesn’t make it automatically valid, Aesthetic value has value which fits the greatest city on the continent.

To your point about adding more ornate stone options I agree. I plan on making a request about expanding the masonry options of the Oldtown and reach palettes with ornate blocks and large bricks.
Check out /warp OTpalettes to see the overview and intended use for the various blocks, stone palettes and wood types that can be used at Oldtown, which consists of much more than the pink Reach and Oldtown palettes.

Additionally, I recommend raising potential issues with Oldtown, be it palette, style, or anything else regarding the project, at the dedicated threads for Oldtown before jumping ahead and requesting blocks without consulting or discussing those issues with the leadership of the project.
 

Azulejo

Bloodmage
Staff member
I disagree, Oldtown is in desperate need of palette variety. Especially since the style is stone-centric we need more blocks to give variety, detail and character, which is lacking. Also it does not help that the buildings and streets are both similar colors so everything just ends up being beige. Oldtown only really has the Pink Reach, Oldtown and Arbor palettes, which are all similar to each other compared to KL which has a diverse palette of dun, stormlands, and grey stones.​
Bit late to the discussion, but I would like to bring up a point: cities tend to be quite uniform in terms of palette/tones/materials, because the materials to built most of them come from nerbay sources, as Estoop has pointed out. This is something we don't always portray, as it can be easier and more fun to introduce additional visual interest with the use of more colours/materials rather than playing with a limited range.

collage (1).jpgcollage.jpgcollage (3).jpgcollage (2).jpg

To try and maintiang this look, which I think is the appropiate choice, I think it would be more useful to expand the block types of the palettes already being used at OT, in the same route as Seri's proposal, which would be a huge leap foward imo. Having said that, Oldtown not only has Pink Reach and Oldtown to play with: part of the Arbor set is included in the accepted gradients, as well as the many sandstones which can be used to add depth and detail to any build. I think at /warp OTcontest many builders have proven that, although still with room to improve, the OT palette is workable. I don't think any of these tests have the problem of being too uniform. Don't get me wrong, there is clearly a dominant colouration all around, but I think that is both realistic and a good look we should not loose by adding too many more palettes.

collage (5).jpgcollage (4).jpg2023-03-12_19.56.21.png

These are just some examples and I think there is still lots to explore with the style. Not only we have the palettes, there's also wood aditions and other possibilities like occasional use of plastered stone and more.

Having said all that, I can't lie, I like the idea of a dark warm grey palette, it is something I thought about for a while. But I wouldn't support it if it's main use was going to be OT, because that is not the place where I think it is needed.​